Israel/Palestine thread

Bro I literally told you to ignore the right-wing Nahala as "Israel".

That's as much Israel as Tucker Carlson is the USA.

Of their 14 seats, even they have a TON of people who don't want back into Gaza. And from your own article:

Some Israeli politicians condemned the meeting, and the participation of government ministers.

Gadi Eisenkot, a former army chief of staff and a current member of the Knesset and Netanyahu’s war cabinet, said that the meeting would “sharpen divisions over that which brings us together” at a time when Israeli soldiers are “fighting shoulder to shoulder in a war with unparalleled justification”.

The right failed Israel. Israelis (the voting majority) don't want another repeat of their nonsense.

There is almost zero chance bibi survives another election

I think a lot of people believe that we haven't had another terrorist attack because of what we did in iraq. I'm not saying that i agree, but i think that's why the number is as high as it is

Even if Israel did want that (they don't), it's clearly a red line for Biden. (Yes, I'm aware he said no red lines in October.)

It's utter nonsense. It puts such a target on Israel's back, like they need a bigger one already.

But it's nonsense that the Israelis crazies do call for. Nobody is saying otherwise. Some of those settlers be crazy. The kind of crazy that comes from being in violent conflict for way too long. So I get their crazy the way I get the Gazan crazy in some spots. This is a brutal conflict producing all manner of awful.

It's like Texan border razor wire, but on steroids. Imagine Texans after Mexican bombs, lol. They'd be like the settlers too.

ignore some of the most powerful people in the govt from the party in power. ok.

The literal crown jewel of the last 20 years is potential normalization with the rest of Arab world, namely the Saudis. That's the last remaining thing Bibi can maybe help attain to save some semblance of legacy. It's not just that normalization is a massive economic coup. It's also the thing that could save Israel's very existence (with regards to a nuclear Iran). It could mean levels of cooperation and prosperity that neither country has seen before. The Saudis and others have made it very clear that Gaza for the Palestinians is one of the "have to have it" conditions for normalization.

And you think they're going to jeopardize that now? Do better, Victor.

lol ok bro. I wont believe my lying eyes.

Just try to participate in geopolitical conversations following like, a basic geopolitical ounce of logic. That's all anyone hopes of you.

try to answer before unspoilering

Do you think with someone else in office significantly fewer people would have been killed in Gaza?

Bibi's already at least jeopardized that if not completely ****ed it up. There's a guaranteed generation and maybe more where this war will make relations with an Arab state difficult. Sure, occupying Gaza would prolong the difficulty, but the damage already done isn't fading away soon.

Here's what we know:

The entire country with some minor exceptions is for totally eliminating Hamas (and Hezbollah right after). That much is clear. If it was possible to do so with less civilian casualties, most Israelis would want that too. I'm actually not convinced that's possible in appreciable volumes though (for many reasons we can get into later). The kill ratios between civilians and combatants relative to the averages for urban combat (which is typically 9:1) show that. But even the Israeli left backs the war as is.

Where the division starts to show is:

-Hostages
-The Day after

Two very complex issues frankly. So to your first question, honestly no. I don't think so. Gallant and Gantz honestly mostly managed a successful campaign in the eyes of Israelis, minus a few issues. That there are under 300 dead IDF soldiers so far is nothing short of miraculous relative to the blow they've dealt the other guys. So your second question I don't know how to answer. Yes it would have been better if it was possible. Of course. Seems rhetorical.

Your third question, I'm not qualified to answer. There are military objectives, and there is all the collateral damage. I think I will be able to answer that in 5-10 years. Right now it's "we'll see".

Less people should have died. That was also true October 6th.

According to arab media sources, the matter seems a little more complicated

https://amwaj.media/media-monitor/how-th...

As far as normalization, we'll see. The Saudi Royals probably love Israel, but autocracies have to worry about public sentiment too.

the logic of this situation is clear

you are at this stage

Of course. Zero people should have died Oct 7th. I'm not arm-chair quarterbacking Hamas.

i can send you the direct quotes from the Saudis (I'll fish for them later), or

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...

Remember, the Saudis and company have to say one thing to one group, and another thing to another group. There is a reason...

we are now finding mass graves of bound civilians. cowardly genocidal IOF and its supporters like rafiki and mets. you will go down in history in the same breath as all other genocide supporters. hope you guys dont have offspring to see your shameful ideas.

Lighten up, Francis.

nah, these genocide supporters are absolutely infuriating

Victor, despite your made up views on the country of Israel as a whole, there's an entire system in place just waiting to nuke (figuratively speaking) anyone or anything that would do something like that.

This is today's front page, just to give you a sense of the system of cheques and balances in this society:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024...

If there is anything remotely close to a real mass grave situation, I promise you Haaretz is going to drop a MOAB on that story. Till that I'm pretty reluctant to believe the accounts of the guys with the lowest regard for human life on earth.

We must wait.

Yeah I thought it was a given we were discussing on the ground as they happen issues, particularly re the ICJ, seeing as they just got started. They currently haven't made a finding re genocide... (or yet again even called for a ceasefire) is that better for you? I hope so. That way you can get back to being your generalised virtue signalling, finger wagging self.

Not having a problem with the complete annihilation of the Palestinian populace...can be seen as kinda sorta engaging in incitement. Just a tad like. As is claiming some lives are worth more than others as a justification for said annihilation of an entire populace.

The Saudi population tends to support Hamas, as far as polls can show. Saudi isn't a democracy, but Israel is putting unwelcome pressure on the Saudi leadership if the strategically important Israeli-Saudi alliance against Iran is to be maintained.