Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Off topic but since i saw my name and abortion mentioned in quotes of posts i don't normally see nor respond to contain false views interpretation about my abortion views were mentioned, last night i learned in class that there are 2 passages in the torah that prove that abortion should not be considered murder. One involved 2 men fighting in exodus, and during their struggle they bump into a woman and cause her to miscarry, they shoul
I could literally not care less what your religious texts say about abortion. And abortion is as germane to the discussion as your lgbtq angling. That was the point, boy genius.
So Iraqis being dicks gives Israel the moral authority to massacre Palestinians?
This is why you perpetually disappoint me in this thread. You read something with a very clear A-B-C narrative and you always come out with D.
The point, Trolly, is that nobody else in the world is a 4 generation forever refugee (even if they live anywhere in the world for that matter). I gave you a very clear example of another people in the region who had the same degree of calamity, and they didn't craft their existence around revenge and perpetual right to return. After 2600 years of citizenship, The Jews of Iraq and their 3 generations of children lost everything, are never going back, and never getting it back. And they haven't crafted a life of victimhood and violent Jihad around it.
In 100 years, we may still be talking about Gazan "refugees" trying to get back what their great great great great great great great grandfathers were involved in. They'll be the only people on earth designated as such. Everyone else figures out the next steps so they can prosper. That's what the 130,000 Jews of Iraq did.
In 100 years, we may still be talking about Gazan "refugees" trying to get back what their great great great great great great great grandfathers were involved in. They'll be the only people on earth designated as such. Everyone else figures out the next steps so they can prosper. That's what the 130,000 Jews of Iraq did.
Yeah no ****, the Palestinians are going to be ****ed for generations. Not sure why this is Iraq's fault.
also, lol at putting "refugee" in scare quotes, like what was the thought process there.
Trolly there are over 5 million Palestinian "refugees" in the world. CEOs of companies living aboard, are "refugees". That is why the quotes. What is required to qualify as a Palestinian refugee relates to your great great great grandparents. Not living in Gaza, it's your blood line. That's why there are officially over 5 million, think it's 5.2M. They don't need to be sitting in a tent in Gaza. In fact more than 3 million of them aren't down there at all.
As for the Iraq's fault thing, I don't understand what you're talking about. Again I'm on A-B-C, you're like Z!
Follow the conversation. We're talking about what happens when you let go of the endless right to return, the blood lust, and focus on a new life. The 130,000 Jews of Iraq did that. They stopped being victims, they never vowed to return. They got on with life the way every other refugee globally does. Something that the forever refugees have not figured out yet.
Here's your UNWRA definition, and how we get to 5.2M:
Anyone whose normal place of residence was in Mandate Palestine during the period from 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948 and
who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war qualifies as a Palestine refugee, as defined
by UNRWA, and is eligible for UNRWA registration. Hence the reference to Palestine refugees, not Palestinian refugees, in UNRWA’s name and official documents. The descendants of the original Palestine refugees are also eligible for registration
Trolly there are over 5 million Palestinian "refugees" in the world. CEOs of companies living aboard, are "refugees". That is why the quotes. What is required to qualify as a Palestinian refugee relates to your great great great grandparents. Not living in Gaza, it's your blood line. That's why there are officially over 5 million, think it's 5.2M. They don't need to be sitting in a tent in Gaza. In fact more than 3 million of them aren't do
So completely refusing to acknowledge the existence of a million plus refugees created by Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign, that's a great look. Because something something Iraq.
They stopped being victims, they never vowed to return. They got on with life the way every other refugee globally does. Something that the forever refugees have not figured out yet.
So just lie back, stop resisting, let us take your land and then learn to get on with life.
So completely refusing to acknowledge the existence of a million plus refugees created by Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign, that's a great look. Because something something Iraq.
In my original post I said "before October 7th", since I was replying to the main point in that excellent post I was referring to.
This has been the status of things all this time, since 1948.
Are there new refugees now? Of course. But again, let's stick to the A-B-C without your outrage deflections. The problem is the forever return, forever bloodlust, forever refugee. And if we don't fix this, it will never BE fixed. The Palestians cannot be the only 100-200 year refugees on earth.
So now that you've astutely pointed out the obvious, what do we do now? Another 100 year refugee? Or something NEW?
So just lie back, stop resisting, let us take your land and then learn to get on with life.
Before Oct 7th, they HAD THE LAND. They literally had it. It was under their feet. That's the most shocking part. They had a path.
Today? I have no idea. I think it's potentially like:
1) half, perhaps the most vulnerable, find new homes elsewhere where they eventually have far better quality of life and opportunity (like all the rest of the refugees globally have done in the best cases)
2) the other half, the ones able to participate in a rebuild, help reduce the overall population density, and see to a new Gaza that they eventually administer themselves. Recognize Israel's right to exist, drop the forever refugee/forever return garbage, and like you say, "get on with life"
Yeah that sounds like SOMETHING. It sounds like more than "river to the sea" head cutting and bombs.
Yes, and not just because they do delusional things like cite their magical books in regard to the morality of health procedures
Ok so you were in favour of the muslim ban i suppose 
, and in general you would see why some secular countries don't want immigration from countries were 90%+ of people are extremely theist.
You literally justified european secular countries to be extremely wary of muslim immigration
The point, Trolly, is that nobody else in the world is a 4 generation forever refugee (even if they live anywhere in the world for that matter). I gave you a very clear example of another people in the region who had the same degree of calamity, and they didn't craft their existence around revenge and perpetual right to return.
You are asking the Palestinians to get over it. But what about the ongoing dispossession and oppression? They are still losing land in the WB and can't vote for the power that controls their space. In Gaza, even before 10/7, they faced a suffocating blockade. Now they are losing more land as the IDF builds a buffer zone.
The Palestinian complaint is only partly based on the 1948 grievance. It's the occupation.
BTW Mets, Saudis say they are not throwing Palestinians under the bus. Recent communique from foreign office:
You are asking the Palestinians to get over it. But what about the ongoing dispossession and oppression? They are still losing land in the WB and can't vote for the power that controls their space. In Gaza, even before 10/7, they faced a suffocating blockade. Now they are losing more land as the IDF builds a buffer zone.
The Palestinian complaint is only partly based on the 1948 grievance. It's the occupation.
Bill do you think the blockade and wall/fences need to exist if a peaceful relationship exists? Are the Christians and Druze behind blockades and fences? There is a chicken and there is an egg. But in this one now someone has to raise their hand and say "ok enough is enough, this forever fight isn't working". That's the only path to lifting blockades, getting work permits, and all the other things that could happen.
"From the River to the Sea", BDS, all the rallies, it only emboldens Hamas. And then Hamas gives them forever generational misery. Somewhere the cycle must end. And a big part of that is in the story of being "forever refugees". It's time to start being forever peaceful resident of Gaza, and earning trust back in the region. Only good things can come from that.
You are asking the Palestinians to get over it. But what about the ongoing dispossession and oppression? They are still losing land in the WB and can't vote for the power that controls their space. In Gaza, even before 10/7, they faced a suffocating blockade. Now they are losing more land as the IDF builds a buffer zone.
The Palestinian complaint is only partly based on the 1948 grievance. It's the occupation.
The Germans were occupied too following WII. When you launch several wars to destroy another nation, as the Palestinians have beed doing the last 80 years, and refuse to make peace or renounce your intentions; you dont get to dictate how the countries you are trying to destroy get to defend themselves.
Ok so you were in favour of the muslim ban i suppose , and in general you would see why some secular countries don't want immigration from countries were 90%+ of people are extremely theist.
You literally justified european secular countries to be extremely wary of muslim immigration
Maybe she's not a nationalist and knows she can move.
Bill do you think the blockade and wall/fences need to exist if a peaceful relationship exists? Are the Christians and Druze behind blockades and fences? There is a chicken and there is an egg. But in this one now someone has to raise their hand and say "ok enough is enough, this forever fight isn't working". That's the only path to lifting blockades, getting work permits, and all the other things that could happen.
"From the River to the S
I think your arguments are generally pretty solid, but Israel is currently annihilating Gaza and has killed like 30000 people. Victor has been right that the scale of destruction is greater than anything in like decades for such a short time period. In the real world, with this continuing to happen, it's a diversion to argue about what happened with Oslo or who is chanting what in a protest.
You said yourself, if you were Gazan you'd have cheered Oct 7th. I don't know if that's literally true or not, but if it's possible that's a concession about what is to be expected as a reaction to Israel's attacks.
The Germans were occupied too following WII. When you launch several wars to destroy another nation, as the Palestinians have beed doing the last 80 years, and refuse to make peace or renounce your intentions; you dont get to dictate how the countries you are trying to destroy get to defend themselves.
The international community should occupy Gaza though, not Israel alone.
Yeah no ****, the Palestinians are going to be ****ed for generations. Not sure why this is Iraq's fault.
Fairly certain that what Iraq did to Jews has contributed to their descendants being extremely attached to the idea of keeping their own state, as well as not trusting Muslims.
Trolly there are over 5 million Palestinian "refugees" in the world. CEOs of companies living aboard, are "refugees". That is why the quotes. What is required to qualify as a Palestinian refugee relates to your great great great grandparents. Not living in Gaza, it's your blood line. That's why there are officially over 5 million, think it's 5.2M. They don't need to be sitting in a tent in Gaza. In fact more than 3 million of them aren't do
Why are 4th generation refugees still in camps in Jordan?
I agree the whole thing is ridiculous
Ok so you were in favour of the muslim ban i suppose , and in general you would see why some secular countries don't want immigration from countries were 90%+ of people are extremely theist.
You literally justified european secular countries to be extremely wary of muslim immigration
I was strongly in favor of that. Pretty much the only thing that Trump got right.
BTW Mets, Saudis say they are not throwing Palestinians under the bus. Recent communique from foreign office:
I believe that is what they have to say, and is their long term goal
In interviews they said their needs to be a process in place toeards that, similar to oslo2 but with stricter deadlines id assume
I still don't think the Jerusalem capitol part will happen
