Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Ya I dunno. The IRA was pro-Nazi. Today Ireland is one of the most pro Hamas countries outside the middle east. Maybe the reality is that's a good model for them? I can't say, I'm not the Ireland expert. I'm the "grateful to the guys who saved the world" expert, I guess.
Among the polled nations (Ireland was not one of them) Italy is the only country where, before 10 7, more people were pro Palestine than pro Israel.
And exceptionally, October 7th, and the Israel reaction, didn't change the mind of basically anyone unlike elsewhere.
Perhaps Ireland is similar, but if that's the case then it must be like in Italy about previous affiliations; our left (and a portion of the extremist right) is anti American in general so ofc it will be anti Israel as well
I think Egypt wants peace tbh, at least the secular/military establishment does.
Northern Africans in general seem to be fairly supportive of actual peace (again, the leaders/elites at least).
But I don't think even the most ardent pro Hamas people believe Iran wants peace
Well I think they want peace because the way incentives align it is clearly the better option. I dont think they have any first principle belief Israel should be a Jewish homeland for the survivors of the pogroms of Jews that took place in Europe and the Muslim world in the 20th century.
If incentives changed, I think they would be more than willing to become belligerent with Israel again.
I dont remember the exact details, but I remember reading that during the Gulf War there was some sort of meeting of regional Arab leaders and coalition forces, and they heard Iraq was shooting Scud missiles into Israel (who wasn't involved in the war at all) and all the Arabs reflexively started smiling and chanting "Allah Akhbar."
I think it is important not to lose sight of why the Arab countries are begrudgingly willing to make peace, what they really think about Jews and Israel, and how quick the peace would evaporate if incentives changed.
This is part of the reason why I think leftist reasoning that weakening Israel will bring peace to the region is very deluded, dangerous thinking.
Who's "they" victor?
There were Axis diplomats in Dublin just before D-Day, I know that much. Enough that the allies were worried sick about the info being transmitted. I think it's a lot more complicated than we know. CV probably knows better.
This however, bad look for Ireland's government
No it doesn't look bad as yet again we were officially neutral and you need to learn what words mean such as neutral.
This however, bad look for Israel's government
https://newlinesmag.com/review/the-nazi-...
The first time that Israel made such a decision was in 1949, when Mamad, the Foreign Ministry’s intelligence service and the predecessor of the Mossad, recruited the Nazi Walther Rauff, one of the vilest Holocaust perpetrators then alive and the inventor of the “gas vans,” mobile gas chambers in which thousands of Jewish men, women and children were choked to death. Rauff, a former military adviser in Syria, agreed to sell information on his former employers. The besieged Jewish state, faced with existential threats from its Arab neighbors, could hardly be picky about its intelligence assets.
Especially when you've no sense of context, the way you don't about Ireland.
I'm still waiting to hear how U2 are doing back home since Bono gave words of support for Oct 7th victims. We have no visibility of that here really.
I'm still waiting to hear how U2 are doing back home since Bono gave words of support for Oct 7th victims. We have no visibility of that here really.
Not a fan of Bono but I personally applaud him for his support. Bono was never really liked over here, even if the band was due to his lecturing in genera. Roger Waters was whinging about him in the UK, due to Waters being pro Palestine and a probable anti Semite.
Not a fan of Bono but I personally applaud him for his support. Bono was never really liked over here, even if the band was due to his lecturing in genera. Roger Waters was whinging about him in the UK, due to Waters being pro Palestine and a probable anti Semite.
what did Bono do? which side did he go with in the Israel-palestine war?
Ok. A little derail is fine. But gd, 300 posts on who did what to whom in WWII and before, the pros and cons of colonial empires, the discovery of vaccines, capitalism and marxism, etc, etc is just too much derail. So I moved all that stuff out of this thread and into the BOC thread.
It's time to get this thread back to talking about Israel and Palestinian topics. Please keep that other stuff out of here.
Thanks.
TeamEstablishment of course ie Israel. Bono has always been a washed out twat (though they were a pretty good power pop outfit when I saw them as a support act in the early 80s well before all the pomposity and pretentiousness kicked in).
TeamEstablishment of course ie Israel. Bono has always been a washed out twat (though they were a pretty good power pop outfit when I saw them as a support act in the early 80s well before all the pomposity and pretentiousness kicked in).
unclear to me establishment = pro israel, at least in Ireland and Italy.
it's very complicated at the moment in some European countries
You think the Palestinians have as much support among Western governments as Israel, huh?
we have college CEO ("head of university" not sure how to translate) in Italy siding pro Palestine as well as the head of a major leftist party (movimento 5 stelle) which just won a regional election against the center right incumbent in Sardinia.
we had students protesting pro Palestine, police using a heavy hand against them because they went through a blockade illegally, and the Italian president of the republic siding with them explicitly (which is super rare here, the president very often stays out of day to day politics)
in the USA as victor correctly mentioned in another thread, super majorities want a ceasefire (even without hostages being released, the Hamas position), and for Biden to push for it. something like 80% of democrats, 60% of independents and 50% of republicans.
on social networks in general (where users skew younger than the median voter) in Italy pro Palestine positions gather more likes and positive engagement than pro israel positions
in the USA as victor correctly mentioned in another thread, super majorities want a ceasefire (even without hostages being released, the Hamas position), and for Biden to push for it. something like 80% of democrats, 60% of independents and 50% of republicans.
That is not the Hamas position.
I thought establishment meant the majority, the "system", remember that in continental europe the left controls cultural centers and media (universities, tv, newspapers, entertainment) and that skews pro Palestine more than pro Israel here unlike maybe I'm the USA (not sure).
the "benpensanti" ("good thinkers"), the upper middle class cultural elite (which is more leftwing than the nation), the people who go to actual theater or book faires are like 60-40 pro Palestine here
The majority of people aren't necessarily the same as the establishment, the people and entities including corporations who run the show (these days on behalf of the elite).
The majority of people aren't necessarily the same as the establishment, the people and entities including corporations who run the show.
here the few corporations that actually explicitly sided with Israel are vilified constantly (carrefour for example) by many people, including famous and powerful ones, on social media.
Forcing foreign countries to bypass Israelis to send aid, especially via airdrop, is going to get more supplies into Hamas’ hands than if IDF just took control of the distribution weeks, if not months, ago.
This whole thing is stupid.
