Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Oct 7th was a military operation with intention of taking hostages.
if Hamas gets the bomb, then they dont even need any hostages. alternatively you could say they would actually already have them at that point.
Do you see how you haven''t disproven anything?
You are very right. Hamas would say "Leave, or we nuke you". What happens if the Jews don't leave?
Like a war between both sides where Iran/Lebanon/Syria and USA/World just doesn't exist? A pure vacuum?
Probably 100-200k dead civilians and all 30k dead Hamas? Probably something like that.
Which is how it would go in any war.
This is likely a conservative estimate. But even using these figures you've just killed a greater % of Palestinians than Palestinians killed Jews in your hypothetical.
The point is that the thing preventing greater atrocities from happening is outside influence, not Israeli respect for Palestinian life. The hypothetical does not show what you claim it shows.
What makes this one entirely unique is the civilians cannot flee. When else has that ever happened? Anyone recall the last conflict where no neighbouring country would take refugees? I struggle to recall the last.
separate issue
I'm glad you asked that. In every defensive war, Israel was green lit to absolutely annihilate their attackers. Did they, beyond their military objectives? They were SO restrained compared to wars in other countries in those spots. Cairo never got shelled (to my knowledge). They were well within their rights to.
Next, did the wall get built before, or after 140 suicide bombers?
Israel typically does the very least possible, until it has no ch
bro wut?
firehose of lies
This is likely a conservative estimate. But even using these figures you've just killed a greater % of Palestinians than Palestinians killed Jews in your hypothetical.
The point is that the thing preventing greater atrocities from happening is outside influence, not Israeli respect for Palestinian life. The hypothetical does not show what you claim it shows.
separate issue
But what are these magical wars playing by the math this forum comes up with? I don't know them. Convincing wins are overwhelming wins. Historically that is what ends wars. This is the only war where people say "it can't end this way". So it doesn't. And you get forever war.
I don't think for a second that anyone will scorekeep Russia this way. Because we never really have.
Nope. It was only after Hamas killed off their rivals and seized the strip in 2007 that the blockade began. We'd have never had a blockade without it.
After this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_...)
And based on Sinwar's story arc, it's hard to argue they were wrong. Already it's bad enough what Hamas built in there. Imagine the no blockade version?
Do you see how you haven''t disproven anything?
You are very right. Hamas would say "Leave, or we nuke you". What happens if the Jews don't leave?
the problem is that you think Palestinians are lesser people. you think they are brutal, bloodthirsty, unreasonable heathen. all of your ideas stem from this and the most natural conclusion is that they need "handled".
so me, a person who has read about the holocaust and many other atrocities, understands that there is nothing uniquely horrendous about the Palestinians, just as there was not uniquely grotesque about the European Jews believes they would use the bomb in their goals toward emancipation and logically that does not involve wasting it on the wanton murder of civilians.
no, all of those points are in support of ending the occupation which is their goal.
Russia won't be allowed back into the western community any time soon. And if they are, that would show a love for Russian natural resources, not a preference for Russians over Jews. Israel can conduct the war the same way, but they do not want to be turned into North Korea like what is happening to Russia.
I respect that Israel needs to do something, but they've executed this war about as poorly as one could imagine. The thing holding them back is not respect for Palestinian life.
Nope. It was only after Hamas killed off their rivals and seized the strip in 2007 that the blockade began. We'd have never had a blockade without it.
After this
seized the strip? by winning a free and fair election that was monitored by the West and who Jimmy Carter agreed was legit.
Russia won't be allowed back into the western community any time soon. And if they are, that would show a love for Russian natural resources, not a preference for Russians over Jews. Israel can conduct the war the same way, but they do not want to be turned into North Korea like what is happening to Russia.
I respect that Israel needs to do something, but they've executed this war about as poorly as one could imagine. The thing holding them
It could quickly in the (admittedly very improbable) case of a regime change with someone substituting putin and giving crimea and donbass back to ukraine immediatly.
Barring that ye they are a pariah state and will be for a while
seized the strip? by winning a free and fair election that was monitored by the West and who Jimmy Carter agreed was legit.
I guess the battle of Gaza wasn't real to you. Noted. It's real in history books.
Nothing says free and fair like rounding up the other side and killing/torturing/locking up a bunch of them. The Hamas way!
Lol man they consider all israel land as theirs lololol, for them ending occupation means no israel state has to exist in the area
I already addressed this and I happen to believe it is negotiable. ofc I could be wrong.
but boy, do I got some news for you about the Israelis and how they feel about all of the land "from the river to the sea".
Thank you.
Israel is like "maaaaybe two state, if safe"
Hamas is like "that's ALL ours"
and here we are
Is there any sizeble group in Israel willing to leave Jerusalem outside both states?
because 2 states, with jerusalem fully Israelian, is irreceivable even by the most "open minded" arabs i fear
I already addressed this and I happen to believe it is negotiable. ofc I could be wrong.
but boy, do I got some news for you about the Israelis and how they feel about all of the land "from the river to the sea".
Even in the 10 year truce version (lol keeping that, but fine), they explain quite clearly that they still plan to take it all.
I have NO IDEA where you get this notion. It's nowhere. And the speed they turn down 2 state offers and the total lack of evening countering shows that.
Peel was 17% to the Jews, and THAT was snap turned down.
History just doesn't support your ideas Victor, and neither does the present.
read your own wiki
the blockade started before the battle.
and the battle stared after Fatah attempted to collaborate with Israel to illegally seize power.
thats beside the point bc the battle did not start for like a year after the blockade started.
firehose of lies. it took me 5 minutes to refute that. I dont have enough time to refute all of your crap but I try.
Even in the 10 year truce version (lol keeping that, but fine), they explain quite clearly that they still plan to take it all.
I have NO IDEA where you get this notion. It's nowhere. And the speed they turn down 2 state offers and the total lack of evening countering shows that.
Peel was 17% to the Jews, and THAT was snap turned down.
History just doesn't support your ideas Victor, and neither does the present.
Ive refuted it many times. Rabin even said he never intended for a 2 state solution and offered "something less than a state."
Hamas is not stupid. the Palestinians are not stupid. in general, most people are not stupid esp after decades of oppression and pressure. they know at this point that freedom will never be given to them and they must struggle for it.
vic
how mad are you that hezbollah and iran havent done **** to support hamas throughout this
you were hoping for a massive uprising right?
no, in general I prefer the least amount of war. maybe you noticed that I am the one continually advocating for cease fires whereas the libs are always out for blood.
but Hezbollah is pretty involved at this point. Israel has been happily murdering Lebanese babies and paramedics as well.
I'm glad you asked that. In every defensive war, Israel was green lit to absolutely annihilate their attackers.
No they weren't, and 1967 wasn't a defensive war -- that was just a pretext. The Israelis knew Nasser had been dragged out of bed and warned off by the Soviets on behalf of the Americans and had ordered his troops in Sinai not to cross the border.
Cairo never got shelled (to my knowledge). They were well within their rights to.
No they weren't, not in 1967, because they knew Egypt wasn't going to attack, and not in 1973 either, because they knew the Arab states were only trying to recover territory captured in Israel's aggressive war in 1967, Israeli population centres were not under attack and Israel certainly couldn't afford to embarrass the US by bombing or shelling Cairo.
imagine this response if he was asked about if Jews were human. or Israelis is more analogous but still.
I actually had no idea the racism towards Palestinians until I started seeing things like this and reading the posts on this forum. like, the liberal baseline is that they are bloodthirsty monsters whos only desire is to murder Jews and its questionable on if they are even human.
Palestinians aren't a race so you can't be racist against them
