The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For context, this is a trans influencer who built a 10 million strong following on TikTok. She took a brand deal with budweiser to post an ad on an instagram, and the anti-trans right went absolutely ballistic, calling for a boycott, condemning the company, and to some perhaps unknowable degree it influenced that Budweiser sales dropped by a 1/4 and
. Dylan speaks more personally about the effect of the hatred on her.
What strikes me about this story is that it is just about visibility. This isn't inclusion in sports or gender-affirming care for minors, it was just that a trans person was visible. This wasn't even visibility in a TV commerical that a poor right-winger is forced to see, it was an ad on her own instagram page. We're all in our own social media algorithm influenced bubbles, but from my vantage point it really has seemed that in the last year or so things have just gotten worse for trans people and the backlash to even minor visibility is growing.
We need to do better.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out and how the NCAA botches the litigation or if the case will failing on some technica/procedural grounds. It reminds me of the class action lawsuit about CBT that was brought a few years back in which most college football players and athletes refused to participate in the settlement.
If i read it correctly here the class is fairly small, just the women who competed vs Lia Thomas in finals (or maybe in any event?).
Anyway they alread have a bunch onboard.
No idea how this stands legally, no idea of title IX can be applied nor if the 14a can be applied.
But it will be interesting to follow
Iirc this question has been asked to gangsta at various points and I don't think he's ever answered it... Maybe I'm wrong there.
While it could, its hard to make any concessions in these discussion on the point because its just you guys trying to imply that being Trans is a front for other mental issues.
Give an inch and it will be made a ruler, so they say
One could argue that constantly implying on the internet that others have mental issues while displaying susceptibility to lies, misinformation, and conspiracies is a front for mental issues.
Its an endless carousel
You lost me on the 50% thing. Could you elaborate on that?
A transgender person by definition is someone whose biological sex (ie male or female with rare exceptions) is different than the gender(man or woman) that they perceive themselves to be. This does not occur anywhere near 50% of the time. And it doesn't involve a "transitioned to" gender. There is the gender they already identify as their self that doesn't match their biological sex.
A recent study in Canada sowed 20% of youth identify as LGBQT2S+
Another study found 50% of youth experiencing mental health issues
Why are you responding to me? I made no claim ITT about the cause of their death, before or after the autopsy.
I know, I was commenting on the narrative itt in general, but should have made that clearer, my apologies. You don't know that Nex's suicide was due to bullying due to their identifying as non binary. (I'm not saying you're wrong either, just that we don't know anything yet.) Your assertion is akin to trolly's false assertion that Nex was beaten to death due to being non binary.
While it could, its hard to make any concessions in these discussion on the point because its just you guys trying to imply that being Trans is a front for other mental issues.
Give an inch and it will be made a ruler, so they say
One could argue that constantly implying on the internet that others have mental issues while displaying susceptibility to lies, misinformation, and conspiracies is a front for mental issues.
Its an endless carousel
Making concessions when necessary is a part of honest discourse. If you're unable to do that then we call that intellectual dishonesty.
While it could, its hard to make any concessions in these discussion on the point because its just you guys trying to imply that being Trans is a front for other mental issues.
Give an inch and it will be made a ruler, so they say
One could argue that constantly implying on the internet that others have mental issues while displaying susceptibility to lies, misinformation, and conspiracies is a front for mental issues.
Its an endless carousel
48% of referrals to tavistock were on the spectrum , vs approx 1% in the population.
Trans people tend to have higher incidence of various mental illnesses, but not 48x ffs. More like 2 to 3 x the general population.
Something really wrong wrt mental illness was happening in tavistock
You don't know that Nex's suicide was due to bullying due to their identifying as non binary. (I'm not saying you're wrong either, just that we don't know anything yet.)
I didn't assert that either. I said they were bullied (based on what they supposedly said). And that they committed suicide. I didn't say something like the exclusive cause of their suicide was the bullying, and don't know how anyone could conclude such a thing (or any of the bizarre fabrications Lucion made up). We do know that society wide bullying increases the amount of suicide ideation, as one might expect, in teens.
You lost me on the 50% thing. Could you elaborate on that?
A transgender person by definition is someone whose biological sex (ie male or female with rare exceptions) is different than the gender(man or woman) that they perceive themselves to be. This does not occur anywhere near 50% of the time. And it doesn't involve a "transitioned to" gender. There is the gender they already identify as their self that doesn't match their biological sex.
SB is claiming that a trans person is not simply identifying as the gender opposite their bio sex, but rather the gender is a core aspect of self. Assuming this is universal, that we each have one gender as a core aspect of self, then what I said would follow.
For instance, let’s say maleness is “who I am”. Then, I should have a 50% chance of my bio sex matching my maleness right? The 50% of the time my bio sex is mismatched means I would be trans 50% of the time based on SB’s claim. Universalizing this, the entire population at large would have the same 50% chance of being trans.
You should try to understand the terms that you use. Constantly you make posts like this that are just pure nonsense and I wonder why you're allowed to get away with such trolling.
If you're going to troll, at least try to be an intelligent troll instead of a dumbass troll.
TLDR: the concept of intellectual dishonest is not a social construct. Just because something is an abstract concept does not make it a social construct.
You should try to understand the terms that you use. Constantly you make posts like this that are just pure nonsense and I wonder why you're allowed to get away with such trolling.
If you're going to troll, at least try to be an intelligent troll instead of a dumbass troll.
TLDR: the concept of intellectual dishonest is not a social construct. Just because something is an abstract concept does not make it a social construct.
and btw the claim never was in general that social constructs are all "non real" to begin with.
National borders are a very real social construct
and btw the claim never was in general that social constructs are all "non real" to begin with.
National borders are a very real social construct
Social constructs are psychological. National borders are physical places.
And it's exactly the psychological nature of social constructs that makes them artificial-- because they're psychological "filters" imposed on people by society.
National borders are things created by society too but they aren't psychological in nature.
SB is claiming that a trans person is not simply identifying as the gender opposite their bio sex, but rather the gender is a core aspect of self. Assuming this is universal, that we each have one gender as a core aspect of self, then what I said would follow.
For instance, let’s say maleness is “who I am”. Then, I should have a 50% chance of my bio sex matching my maleness right? The 50% of the time my bio sex is mismatched means I would be
Now, contrast this claim of half the population being trans with the claim I made here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/285/p...
My claim is, for people who identify as trans, the social self strongly identifies with a gender identity in order to avoid giving up control to the individuating self.
While it could, its hard to make any concessions in these discussion on the point because its just you guys trying to imply that being Trans is a front for other mental issues.
Give an inch and it will be made a ruler, so they say
One could argue that constantly implying on the internet that others have mental issues while displaying susceptibility to lies, misinformation, and conspiracies is a front for mental issues.
Its an endless carousel
"trans being a front for other mental issues" is an inaccurate reflection of the position that people are taking. The primary concern is people with underlying issues picking up on "trans" because it's so pervasive in the culture and being funneled into gender treatments when they would be better served by other interventions. Or people with only a moderate degree of gender dysphoria that could be managed in other ways being pushed into more serious interventions than are necessary.
The concern is the "affirmative" model of care going too far. For instance, we would expect some percentage of people showing up at a cancer clinic to turn out not to have cancer. In the same way, we should expect some percentage of people going to a gender clinic to turn out not to not be transgender (or gender identity not their main issue/ not require medical intervention). However, it would seem that this almost never happens, at least that's my impression, but maybe I'm wrong.
Just trying to provide balance for the 120 iq posts about Epstein's body double's ears, linguistics and poor corpse imitation.
If you think I'm wrong about something-- anything at all-- why don't you take it to the relevant thread or start a new one? I'd be willing to discuss anything and everything with you.
SB is claiming that a trans person is not simply identifying as the gender opposite their bio sex, but rather the gender is a core aspect of self. Assuming this is universal, that we each have one gender as a core aspect of self, then what I said would follow.
For instance, let’s say maleness is “who I am”. Then, I should have a 50% chance of my bio sex matching my maleness right? The 50% of the time my bio sex is mismatched means I would be
Did I really just witness somebody basically use the "it's 50/50, it either happens or it doesn't" meme in a real argument? This might actually be the most basic maths fail I've ever seen in an argument on this forum.
Hint: The answer to the one direct question posed in this post is trivially no and nothing Bryce or anyone else has said in this thread suggests otherwise.
Did I really just witness somebody basically use the "it's 50/50, it either happens or it doesn't" meme in a real argument? This might actually be the most basic maths fail I've ever seen in an argument on this forum.
Hint: The answer to the one direct question posed in this post is trivially no and nothing Bryce or anyone else has said in this thread suggests otherwise.
Do trans people have one gender as a core aspect of self or not? If not, then what exactly is meant by trans is “who you are”?
Do trans people have one gender as a core aspect of self or not? If not, then what exactly is meant by trans is “who you are”?
Bryce's claim is that they do yes. There is absolutely no reason to think it is random and completely unrelated to biological sex though, which is the nonsensical assumption you made in your post.
Bryce's claim is that they do yes. There is absolutely no reason to think it is random and completely unrelated to biological sex though, which is the nonsensical assumption you made in your post.
A central claim of trans activists is that this core gender aspect of self is independent of bio sex.
A central claim of trans activists is that this core gender aspect of self is independent of bio sex.
I would say that if that wording was used (and I'm not entirely convinced it would be) then the claim would be that they are independent in the common usage, meaning they are separate things with different influences. I highly doubt that anybody would claim they are independent in the formal statistical sense that implies zero correlation. For example two siblings could be considered independent of each other in the colloquial sense but there is likely to be lots of factors about them that are strongly correlated. Gender and biological sex could be considered similarly - they are things that are independent in the colloquial sense but are still strongly correlated.
To be clear though, nobody had used the word independent up to this point in the conversation. Using that strict statistical definition does at least explain the wild assumption you were making though.
I would say that if that wording was used (and I'm not entirely convinced it would be) then the claim would be that they are independent in the common usage, meaning they are separate things with different influences. I highly doubt that anybody would claim they are independent in the formal statistical sense that implies zero correlation. For example two siblings could be considered independent of each other in the colloquial sense but the
To me, saying that gender is influenced by biology means it’s an identity, which is what SB is specifically denying. You two are the ones who are confused.
Is gender an identity independent of self or not? Is the self gendered with one gender or not?
I highly doubt that anybody would claim they are independent in the formal statistical sense that implies zero correlation.
Most people can't even define what statistical independence means, it is one of those words that has a colloquial meaning closer to "one doesn't always determine the other" which in the case of sex and gender is completely accurate. I remember watching some Peterson thing where he acted all holier-than-thou over this exact issue as if "trans activists" are making some math mistake because the variables of sex and gender are not statistically independent. But I don't think anyone is actually claiming they are, and it doesn't hurt any arguments made by people who are accepting of trans people to note that.
