Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
OK. I'm not in a position to move a bunch of posts, but please move the discussion about Ukraine/Russia to their thread and the discussion of my modding and why people mod to the BoC thread. Thanks.
I don't think I've even said bowser or whoever is a bad mod. IDGAF. I'm just tired of the very often stated lie that modding is thankless. People mod because it's thanked and they know it's thanked. For some people it's a coveted position. They feel like it shows they are respected. It's all about the thanks. They are paid in thanks.
You’re projecting.
And then after being attacked, the nabka happened mostly because arab nations encouraged people to leave until they won the land back
No. The majority of the expulsions (400k IIRC) occurred before the Arab invasion May 15, 1948. The Nakba began late 1947 after the partition plan was announced. Deir Yassin was in April.
Most Israeli casualties occurred in the Arab sections of the UN partition.
I am once again begging you to understand that the treatment of North America's indigenous population is not an acceptable moral benchmark for enlightened nations in 2024. It was considered barbaric by the standards of the era.
Jews ARE the Indians Trolly. Dig into the ground, all you find is OUR artifacts. It's the greatest return story there is.
That doesn’t really attack Trolly’s point.
Modern democracies are and should be held to a higher standard. Right now Bibi and his cronies are so far below standard, and falling, they run the risk of becoming comparables to Hamas.
Keep in mind I truly believe Hamas does not deserve to exist and is a cancer that needs to be excised.
Don’t let hatred blind your vision. The end goal is peace and prosperity for your people.
And that will require treating your enemies humanely (to the extent possible) in the modern context.
Keep in mind I truly believe Hamas does not deserve to exist and is a cancer that needs to be excised.
i am still waiting for a plan to achieve that , with far fewer Palestinian civilian casualties.
unless there is an actionable one I don't see how Israel can then be criticized to try tl achieve Hamas destruction, even if it cost palestian civilian lives.
i am still waiting for a plan to achieve that , with far fewer Palestinian civilian casualties.
unless there is an actionable one I don't see how Israel can then be criticized to try tl achieve Hamas destruction, even if it cost palestian civilian lives.
This is because you lack the morals required to do such an exercise
No. The majority of the expulsions (400k IIRC) occurred before the Arab invasion May 15, 1948. The Nakba began late 1947 after the partition plan was announced. Deir Yassin was in April.
Most Israeli casualties occurred in the Arab sections of the UN partition.
I believe this is patently false
i am still waiting for a plan to achieve that , with far fewer Palestinian civilian casualties.
unless there is an actionable one I don't see how Israel can then be criticized to try tl achieve Hamas destruction, even if it cost palestian civilian lives.
Palestinian culture is the problem. It is completely dysfunctional. There is literally no plan that could ever work without addressing this. You can criticize Israel all you want, and it doesn't matter.
You cant have a peace as long as there is culture that is completely dedicated to destroying their neighbor, and wont even attempt to form a functional, peaceful society; and at the same time the outside world condones this and even funds it. For 80 years the world has been funding their forever war against Israel, and at the same time telling Israel it isn't allowed to end the war. The incentive structures are completely absurd.
The Palestinians need to be cut off completely. Not one more penny. Then peace can happen, because they will be forced to. The current incentive structure which rewards this nihilistic, antisocial culture is the problem.
I believe this is patently false
This is because you are unable to handle viewpoints that conflict with your own version of reality
“ During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated,[8] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, 750,000 people,[9] fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army in what is now Israel proper, which covers 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine.”
i am still waiting for a plan to achieve that , with far fewer Palestinian civilian casualties.
unless there is an actionable one I don't see how Israel can then be criticized to try tl achieve Hamas destruction, even if it cost palestian civilian lives.
It's all fun and games until you are the one on the chopping block
What would Gaza look like if the US backed it for the last 75 years?
Also, try taking an interest in treating everyone like a human being? You can adhere to the tenets of capitalism and also have more empathy and moral cognition than you currently seem to display
It is possible to criticize Israel when you stop dehumanizing Palestinians
It's all fun and games until you are the one on the chopping block
What would Gaza look like if the US backed it for the last 75 years?
Also, try taking an interest in treating everyone like a human being? You can adhere to the tenets of capitalism and also have more empathy and moral cognition than you currently seem to display
It is possible to criticize Israel when you stop dehumanizing Palestinians
I don't know about Gaza per se, but Israel wouldn't exist if the USA armed Arabs. No idea which actual rate of development and well being they would have had.
KSA got American help for decades and they have some decent quality of life but they take in immense quantities of money from oil.
Maybe Gaza would be at Jordan level with American backing? So still dirty poor for western standards (a tad lower than china nationwide) but 3-4x the per Capita GDP they have now?
As for the rest, even under capitalism, which helps frame as many dynamics as possible as win-win, there are some dynamics that are 0 sum in human life.
And a struggle between two groups for exclusive control of a place is one of them.
In that struggle, after it's clear neither group wants a real compromise, it's impossible to treat both "as humans" (in the sense of allowing both to flourish). At least one of the two groups has to be vanquished, annihilated, subjugated in it's will. When we are unlucky both groups get deeply damaged in the war and nobody wins (see Iran v Iraq).
Given we are to choose, it isn't hard for me to choose Israel
That's just false. You find plenty of artifacts from polytheistic groups and archaeological artifacts that predate Judaism by 10s of thousands of years.
ok the "all" was a manner of speaking, but I could see how you would take it literally. We agree, it's not ALL you find
I was being more curt/sarcastic, like "all you're gonna find is evidence we were there"
I will choose my words more carefully. Obviously I am veeeery aware of the various previous ruling civilizations, since so many of them did expel the Jews for example.
ok the "all" was a manner of speaking, but I could see how you would take it literally. We agree, it's not ALL you find
I was being more curt/sarcastic, like "all you're gonna find is evidence we were there"
I will choose my words more carefully. Obviously I am veeeery aware of the various previous ruling civilizations, since so many of them did expel the Jews for example.
I don't think people have much doubt that Judaism originated in that region. But far older sites left over periods of time ranging much longer than Judaism has even existed are also common.
It's all fun and games until you are the one on the chopping block
What would Gaza look like if the US backed it for the last 75 years?
This is basically what happened everywhere else, and there was no war at all.
The Muslim world genocided the Jews from their ancestral lands (and a lot of other people, including millions of Christians) and the world told the Jews, "Them's the breaks, better move on." And the Jews moved on. And most of them are doing just fine in their new homelands (Israel, US, Canada mainly).
The Jews threw the Palestianians out and the world told them, "Have I got a deal for you. You can live in refugee camps forever on the border of Israel and fight them indefinitely in guerrilla wars, and we will never let Israel win, and we will pay for everything. How does that sound?" And the Palestinians took the deal and are now stuck in a cycle of dysfunction.
Other than just pack up and leave, there is nothing Israel could do to fix the Palestinian situation, because they aren't the ultimate cause. The ultimate cause is the dysfunctional culture and perverse incentive structures.
Oldest found record of humans in Israel are from 177000-194000 years ago.
The problem isn't religion per se. Because all the monotheistic religions as originally prescribed and practiced more or less sucked relative to modern Western liberalism/capitalism.
The problem is the Islamic world is currently stuck in a fundamentalist rut, so they especially suck right now. If Israel and the Christian world embraced fundamentalism as the Muslim world has they would probably suck just as bad. And the results would probably be worse, because the Western world is so much more technologically advanced and capable than the Muslim world.
