Israel/Palestine thread

I don't see why. Hamas is considered an Iranian proxy because it is pretty much reliant on Iran for funding and weapons. This was true prior to October 7th which is extremely important.

Ukraine received minimal help from western countries, and was in no way reliant on them prior to the Russian invasion.

Oct 7th doesn't matter. Hamas and Iran can make the argument Gaza has been fighting an invasion since 1948. Iran is just supporting a people's fight for freedom and to reclaim their land.

You don't see a major difference in Gaza pre October 7th and post October 7th?

"Can make the argument" sounds a lot like a semantics argument. If you want to use a different word or description to describe pre and post October 7th that is more comparable to pre and post Russian invasion we can use that instead.

If South Korea were invaded by North Korea, they would be flooded with aid as well. That does not make them a proxy. They are technically at war now, but pre and post a hypothetical 2024 North Korea invasion would look very different.

Dunno, it's not like we publish aid to Al-Nusra or you can look up what they're doing today with the FSA, but the USA continues to take both sides in Northern Syria and one of those sides is Turkey and its allies, which includes Islamist groups.

The Palestinian's land was invaded and conquered by Europeans (1948) and they've been under a blockade and occupation for decades. The resistance will take any funding and tactical advice they can but ultimately make their own decisions (Oct 7th). That would be the short part of the argument. Seems pretty similar to me. It's Iran funding the enemy of their enemy.

Iran provides more than funding and tactical advice, they arm Hamas. This has not been a hot war since 1948, making the situations completely different to a full scale invasion.

I do not believe that Hamas can make any decision that they wish and still receive funding from Iran. If Hamas were to work with Israel (not saying that Israel would agree to this, purely hypothetical) then Iran would almost certainly pull their funding. So yes, Hamas is allowed some autonomy in what they do, but they do have a framework they must work within. October 7th is well within that framework.

While Hamas has been reliant on Iran even during relatively peaceful times (pre October 7th), Ukraine was not completely reliant on the West during relatively peaceful times with Russia (pre the full scale invasion). The degrees of dependency and the dynamics regarding external support are completely different.

I'm playing devil's advocate for argument's sake with BGP.

This actually remains to be seen. Obviously because of the religiously motivated indigent antisemitism in their supporters, neither Iran or Qatar is going to abandon Hamas in the middle of a hot war with Jews. However, it will be interesting to see if Iran, and more importantly Qatar, re-evaluate their relationship with Hamas when things cool down.

Fair enough. Due to revisionist historical indoctrination the Palestinian people themselves certainly view the original Jewish Zionists as invaders, whether this is technically true or not.

I suppose that is true and it should be phrased differently. If it is outside of the framework then it is because it was too effective and provoked too great a response, not because the spirit of what they did was not in line with what Iran wishes.

What I meant is that Hamas likely believed that was well within the framework, and should they lose support from Iran then it is because Hamas is a victim of its own "success" regarding the October 7th attack which brought too much heat for Iran.

When Ukraine loses the war and only Lviv and some small area of surrounding land remain semi autonomous as "Ukraine" and America funds them 80 years down the line to try to get their land back, will they then be a proxy or just America supporting freedom fighters?
A country is invaded, another country gives them weapons, Intel, training, etc... sometimes it's a proxy and sometimes it's just supporting your ally/enemy of your enemy?
You even said you don't think Iran had previous knowledge of Oct 7th. So they're just giving Hamas what they can and telling them use it as best you can to further your cause. Doesn't sound anymore a proxy than Ukraine.

Yeah, like you have people that think Ukraine was invaded as a land grab and people that think Putin has been provoked and threatened and was left no other choice.
Mainly just busting BGP's balls but do find it kind of interesting how close it can be between proxy or not.
For the record I agree with him on Ukraine but why can't it be applied to Hamas?

I would argue that if "Ukraine" is reliant on the West for 80 years then at some point they have become a proxy, especially if Russia has not been trying to conquer them for the vast majority of that time. Do you agree that in your hypothetical that if "Ukraine" (Lviv) decided to join Russia that USA would stop giving aid and "Ukraine" would cease to be a proxy at that point?

The differences between the invasions has been discussed and addressed imo. At this point it's equivocation. I do not buy that since 1948 Palestine has been suffering the same existential threat that Ukraine has been fighting against since the full scale invasion began.

Yeah, the Palestinian's have had their hot wars and taken L's everytime. I would say Ukraine can probably surrender now and keep some of their land but have to meet Putin's demands which may mean giving up most of their coastline, demilitarizing, Russians on their borders and they could find themselves in a similar situation to Gaza.

I understand your points but I don't see it as a big stretch to argue Hamas is not an Iranian/Qatar proxy. A convenient pawn for sure though.

Both have elements of proxy and ally for sure, which is also how I described Ukraine previously.

Hamas leans far more towards proxy than ally.

If Ukraine were to sign Putin's previous peace treaty then it is extremely unlikely they would be around as an autonomous country 80 years from now.

Israel built the hospitals and other infrastructure in Gaza, hoping to pacify the islamists. Needless to say, the pacification effort is now different.

the funding and resources from Iran is massively overstated and not remotely similar to Ukraine. we can talk about it when Iran provides tanks, armored vehicles, missile defense systems, a few high tech drones, a ton of low tech drones, Javalin anti-tank rockets.

the Resistance is largely using natively engineered and built weaponry. the Yassin rocket with tandem charge. and the al-Ghoul sniper rifle.

West funding Ukraine who have been aggressively invaded= BAD 😡

Iran funding Hezbollah, Hamas Houthis= Good. 😀

This is among many reasons why you're one of the worst posters itt.

Not very good at it so are they, considering Gaza's population increased?

can you read? I didnt say it was bad or good. I said it was not the same as the Iran Hamas relationship in terms of weaponry.

if palestine doesnt exist in 2048, will you admit you were wrong

Yes I can read, such as your attempts to pour water over one (non Western quelle surprise) power's funding of terrorism by asserting it's "massively overstated," and your condemnation of a western power's funding of those who are aggressively invaded.
And I'm not interested in your "you lack reading comprehension!!" schtick either as that bullshit got stale circa 2021.
You're simply an apologist for despots and scummy regimes due to your evident virulent hatred of the west and an absolute hypocrite and it's plain for anyone to see.

ok but the fact remains, the West provides Ukraine with a lot more weaponry than Iran provides Hamas. and Hamas is mostly using natively built weapons at the moment.

Im sorry that upsets you so much. but facts dont care about your feelings.

Palestine doesnt exist right now. and they believe it should never exist.