Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Human rights sage and Holocaust survivor Aryeh Neier has changed his mind about whether Gaza is a genocide. He states that if Saddam's massacre of the Kurds was genocide, and it was, then so is Gaza.
I thought then, and continue to believe, that Israel had a right to retaliate against Hamas for the murderous rampage it carried out on October 7. . . . I believe that Hamas shares responsibility for many of Israel’s war crimes.
And yet, even believing this, I am now persuaded that Israel is engaged in genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. What has changed my mind is its sustained policy of obstructing the movement of humanitarian assistance into the territory.
Eventually people will figure out that there is a genocide continuum
This will go down I history as one of the worst.
Israel isn't targeting civilians so it isn't genocide
If hamas surrenders and Israel continues the war it could be genocide
Simple question:
Among the people who are protesting Israel or who feel strongly anti-Israel at the moment, what percentage would change their mind if Israel declared (and meant) that they will bring down civilian harm to almost zero, but instead will slowly and methodically hunt down and eventually kill every single person who could be proven to have been involved in the OCT 7 massacre?
Or, since this is not realistically possible, maybe I should simply ask what percentage of protesters would continue to be anti Israel if they somehow killed only Hamas members.
@mets, every single person in Gaza disagrees with you.
Simple question:
Among the people who are protesting Israel or who feel strongly anti-Israel at the moment, what percentage would change their mind if Israel declared (and meant) that they will bring down civilian harm to almost zero, but instead will slowly and methodically hunt down and eventually kill every single person who could be proven to have been involved in the OCT 7 massacre?
this is like if my Aunt had balls she would be my Uncle. if Israel pledged and executed this, then they would fail to be Israel anymore. bc the whole point of the entity is that they murder and oppress the indigenous population.
its like asking if Nazi Germany would have won the war if they didnt do the holocaust and instead put their resources elsewhere. well, then they wouldnt be Nazis so its not the same.
the point of a system is what it does.
this is like if my Aunt had balls she would be my Uncle. if Israel pledged and executed this, then they would fail to be Israel anymore. bc the whole point of the entity is that they murder and oppress the indigenous population.
its like asking if Nazi Germany would have won the war if they didnt do the holocaust and instead put their resources elsewhere. well, then they wouldnt be Nazis so its not the same.
the point of a system is what i
What I am trying to ascertain is how many of the protesters are accentuating the concern for civilians and downplaying that they would be anti Israel even if there was no Oct 7.
Israel isn't targeting civilians so it isn't genocide
If hamas surrenders and Israel continues the war it could be genocide
What I am trying to ascertain is how many of the protesters are accentuating the concern for civilians and downplaying that they would be anti Israel even if there was no Oct 7.
cant put that toothpaste back in the jar. cant unbreak an egg.
this is like if my Aunt had balls she would be my Uncle. if Israel pledged and executed this, then they would fail to be Israel anymore. bc the whole point of the entity is that they murder and oppress the indigenous population.
its like asking if Nazi Germany would have won the war if they didnt do the holocaust and instead put their resources elsewhere. well, then they wouldnt be Nazis so its not the same.
the point of a system is what i
Disgusting post that should not be made
Simple question:
Among the people who are protesting Israel or who feel strongly anti-Israel at the moment, what percentage would change their mind if Israel declared (and meant) that they will bring down civilian harm to almost zero, but instead will slowly and methodically hunt down and eventually kill every single person who could be proven to have been involved in the OCT 7 massacre?
Or, since this is not realistically possible, maybe I s
It's hard to say.
There is a core of people who are only concerned with Israeli human rights abuses, but no other country. These might be antisemites. But also, there are some Jews who hold Isreal to a high standard.
I would say that, as the protest grows, these people make up a smaller portion of it. It is unlikely that someone new to the cause has just decided recently to hate Jews. It is likely that they have seen a deluge of images and reports of dead kids, doctors, journalists, civilians, etc and find what they are seeing to be worth protesting.
Why would it be so hard to just target the bad actors?
It seems like the US could probably have gotten Bin Laden without destroying Iraq, for example.
We got El Chapo without blowing up Mexican hospitals. We crippled the mafia without randomly killing Italian Americans...
What I am trying to ascertain is how many of the protesters are accentuating the concern for civilians and downplaying that they would be anti Israel even if there was no Oct 7.
I'd wager that without the war, most of the protestors would continue to object to military occupation and settler rampages.
the truth hurts.
the one thing that the response to Oct 7 has done is illustrate just how criminal and murderous Israel has been since its inception.
they can pledge whatever they want and no one will believe the. and even they act properly within the proposed Sklansky pledge, they have been exposed as a criminal apartheid regime built on murder, theft, and oppression.
the only way the protesters and future generations will have any tolerance for Israel is if they **** off back to the 1967 borders and de-Zionize.
Simple question:
Among the people who are protesting Israel or who feel strongly anti-Israel at the moment, what percentage would change their mind if Israel declared (and meant) that they will bring down civilian harm to almost zero, but instead will slowly and methodically hunt down and eventually kill every single person who could be proven to have been involved in the OCT 7 massacre?
Or, since this is not realistically possible, maybe I s
Displacing an incredibly large group of people from their homes will cause serious harm and discomfort, to put it lightly, to eliminate potential threats to one's self, in which the threat is similar to what the Palestinians are currently enduring.
I don't think any govt should have the capability to do something like this, and while it would be nice that they tidied things up from this point foreword, the hatred for the organization commanding this operation would still be there regardless.
At this point, it matters whether Israel only kills Hamas members now or from oct 8.
right if they would have killed like 10 or 20k people and hunted down a bunch of Hamas and wrapped it up by Christmas then the status quo would be tenable.
but they went all in on just murdering as many Gazans as possible and destroying an entire society. they have made too many enemies at this point and have made themselves a pariah state. and deservedly so.
one thing to realize about fascist murderous regimes is that they always get more deadly towards the end. so expect this to get a lot worse for the Palestinians before this grotesque ideology of theft and murder is reeducated.
You appear not to have noticed that this is precisely what Israelis have done to Palestinians, and that this is why Palestinians are radicalised against them.
I understand. I am just pointing out it is a 2 way street. There is no shortage of liberals pontificating that Israel's actions are radicalizing Palestinians, with no acknowledgement it works both ways. And really, the Palestinians should be incentivized to act better for their own safety and benefit.
What I am trying to ascertain is how many of the protesters are accentuating the concern for civilians and downplaying that they would be anti Israel even if there was no Oct 7.
I dont think they are really downplaying their biases at all. Much of the protest is against "anti-Zionism," and it is not like Israel's response to 10/7 has really changed that dynamic. Obviously the war has energized the far left, but the biases were clearly pre-existing.
Displacing an incredibly large group of people from their homes will cause serious harm and discomfort, to put it lightly, to eliminate potential threats to one's self, in which the threat is similar to what the Palestinians are currently enduring.
I don't think any govt should have the capability to do something like this, and while it would be nice that they tidied things up from this point foreword, the hatred for the organization command
Pakistan just evicted 3 million (yes with an M) Afghani's living peacefully in Pakistan, and frog marched them straight back to Afghanistan. No one gives a **** and nothing will be done.
The inevitability of hatred and resistance narrative is really over-rated. The truth is in the majority of cases where this kind of stuff happens, the group being displaced isn't given any choice, and there is little resistance or radicalization. And everyone gets over it pretty quickly, within a generation or two.
As just another historical example, of infinite examples, in 1962 Algeria announced that Jews could not be citizens, the government started seizing all Jewish property, and the 140,000 Jews were forced to emigrate, mainly to France and Israel. No resistance at all. No radicalization. And a couple generations later everyone has moved on, and really isn't any hatred either.
The whole dynamic and incentive structure of this 80 year conflict is the extreme anomaly where Palestinians are incentivized to live in refugee camps on the border of Israel and "resist" and "radicalize," with Israel being forced to be tremendously restrained in stamping out the resistance, so it endures and grows, at least until 10/7.
But this situation is the extreme anomaly with bizarre dynamics and perverse incentive structures, and there is nothing inevitable about it.
