Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Cool. I suspect there'll be more of the same to follow. Make sure you don't miss them, won't you?
We are of a like mind, which is why we enjoy each other's company so much. I really love honest people with a strong sense of right and wrong.
We might occasionally argue but only over minor details.
Why should it condemn another country if it enables Gaza to defend itself when Israel gets so much from the West? Isn't that what happens in wars, which we are repeatedly told this is?
What Gaza would look like if it was spending money on defensive measures:
-Any early detection system + air raid sirens. You've got over a dozen countries who would have been willing to sell them one (and largely subsidized)
-Any bunkers for civilians. The next one they build will be their first
Far as I can tell, Gaza has built OFFENSIVE capabilities, and the means to tunnel underground to pop up and shoot them where convenient. You'd have no issues from me if I felt for a second that Egypt was trying to help keep people alive. But that's just the problem. They're complicit in making sure more die.
This thread splits in two when you have people who propose taking a chance even at the horrific cost of military operations today to hopefully prevent decades of death and despair later. At the end of the day, actually we want the same things. We just totally see the path there differently.
"River to the Sea" chants ARE war chants. That's the weird part. It's egging on generations to go to the slaughter. We'd rather this not go generations more.
"River to the Sea" chants ARE war chants. That's the weird part. It's egging on generations to go to the slaughter. We'd rather this not go generations more.
Not always Chopper, you have to ask the individual.
To most people it just means civil rights -- like the right to vote for the sovereign in charge.
Not always Chopper, you have to ask the individual.
To most people it just means civil rights -- like the right to vote for the sovereign in charge.
Bill it doesn't matter what it means to YOU. The average YOU will never set foot in Gaza. The average YOU will never have your house bombed out. The average you will never go toe to toe with an IDF that absolutely will not give up Israel.
What matters is the people the chants enable and encourage. The world is encouraging and enabling a fantasy. And Gaza and the Hamas death cult is picking up on it. It's giving them resolve. It's making them make choices. You hear Hamas directly thanking the campus protestors as just one example.
So let's not be naive here. If you encourage "River to the Sea", you encourage a forever war where Gazans go to the slaughter, forever.
That is understanding how the world actually works, and not "how you'd like it to work"
What Gaza would look like if it was spending money on defensive measures:
-Any early detection system + air raid sirens. You've got over a dozen countries who would have been willing to sell them one (and largely subsidized)
-Any bunkers for civilians. The next one they build will be their first
Far as I can tell, Gaza has built OFFENSIVE capabilities, and the means to tunnel underground to pop up and shoot them where convenient. You'd have no
Totally unprecedented for a country to buy offensive weapons for use when attacked.
Hamas is a sick organisation imo and the October attacks against Israeli civilians was appalling and unjustifiable.
As are these. And these are an order of magnitude worse, and Israel keeps finding new ways to plumb lower and lower depths of depravity.
If Bibi waged the war better and did more to feed the Gazan people, he'd still have some runway to inflict collateral damage everyone with half a brain recognizes as inevitable.
Bibi instead chose to wage the war, against the advice of his own military and intelligence officers I might add, in the stupidest and most callous ways possible.
No, he's not committing genocide. But he is undoubtedly guilty of reckless disregard for Gazan lives at a minimum and very likely of collective punishment.
Totally unprecedented for a country to buy offensive weapons for use when attacked.
Hamas is a sick organisation imo and the October attacks against Israeli civilians was appalling and unjustifiable.
As are these. And these are an order of magnitude worse, and Israel keeps finding new ways to plumb lower and lower depths of depravity.
Hamas is, and has been for decades, using civilians as shields. Israel is saying they've had enough and Hamas must be removed.
The international community has collective shared responsibility for allowing Hamas to fester and embed itself so deeply into the Gazan civilian population.
at least 21 dead in another designated safe zone attack
If Bibi waged the war better and did more to feed the Gazan people, he'd still have some runway to inflict collateral damage everyone with half a brain recognizes as inevitable.
Bibi instead chose to wage the war, against the advice of his own military and intelligence officers I might add, in the stupidest and most callous ways possible.
No, he's not committing genocide. But he is undoubtedly guilty of reckless disregard for Gazan lives at a
Bibi cares about his country and is aware of the evil that threatens it. The degree of difficulty executing this war in such a dense area where the enemy hides amongst the civilians is unprecedented. I don't think it is "collective punishment". I do think he'd prefer they die over his soldiers dying.
at least 21 dead in another designated safe zone attack
It's a shame Hamas chooses to hide amongst them.
Hamas is, and has been for decades, using civilians as shields. Israel is saying they've had enough and Hamas must be removed.
The international community has collective shared responsibility for allowing Hamas to fester and embed itself so deeply into the Gazan civilian population.
Just like the anti war protestors extended the Vietnam war the anti Israel protestors are keeping this thing going as well. As long as the tacit support for Hamas continues, they will dig in and keep up the fight. Why would the enemy give up now? Just like North Vietnam they may be able to hold out and get a better deal. the anti Israel folks unknowingly have blood on their hands.
It's a shame for Israel that its actions have opened the eyes of people around the world to its core beliefs and nature - a depraved monster of a regime.
Bill it doesn't matter what it means to YOU. The average YOU will never set foot in Gaza. The average YOU will never have your house bombed out. The average you will never go toe to toe with an IDF that absolutely will not give up Israel.
What matters is the people the chants enable and encourage. The world is encouraging and enabling a fantasy. And Gaza and the Hamas death cult is picking up on it. It's giving them resolve. It's making the
Calls for civil rights = death cult in your twisted world.
It's a shame for Israel that its actions have opened the eyes of people around the world to its core beliefs and nature - a depraved monster of a regime.
The ignorant wokester's were concerned about Ukraine for a while until the "Palestinian" cause came up. I'm sure they will move on to something new pretty soon. There are plenty of things they should be more outraged about that they haven't heard of. The Palestinian cause has a lot of money and propaganda backing it up. They have done a good job marketing. The reality is most people don't care about "Palestine". They just care about getting to work or picking their kids up on time without having the rode blocked by protestors.
Just like the anti war protestors extended the Vietnam war the anti Israel protestors are keeping this thing going as well. As long as the tacit support for Hamas continues, they will dig in and keep up the fight. Why would the enemy give up now? Just like North Vietnam they may be able to hold out and get a better deal. the anti Israel folks unknowingly have blood on their hands.
Lmao
Hamas is, and has been for decades, using civilians as shields. Israel is saying they've had enough and Hamas must be removed.
The international community has collective shared responsibility for allowing Hamas to fester and embed itself so deeply into the Gazan civilian population.
Israel is entitled to decide that it won't tolerate Hamas as a neighbour after Oct 7, but I don't think the 'international community' could ever have done much about a situation in Gaza which was largely of Israel's own making.
From wiki
In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for an Arab state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine.[6] By 1969, after several revisions, the PLO used the phrase to call for a single democratic state for Arabs and Jews, that would replace Israel.[6]
Many Palestinian activists have called it "a call for peace and equality" after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the "destruction" of Israel.[7] Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and the removal or extermination of its Jewish population.[8][7]
When Palestinians say it, or when Israelis say it, it basically means 1 state. We can argue semantics but it absolutely does not mean 2 state. So it means no more Israel. And Israel is not disappearing
When Palestinians say it, or when Israelis say it, it basically means 1 state. We can argue semantics but it absolutely does not mean 2 state. So it means no more Israel. And Israel is not disappearing
Granting the right to vote would mean emergence of a binational state. That's fair.
From wiki
When Palestinians say it, or when Israelis say it, it basically means 1 state. We can argue semantics but it absolutely does not mean 2 state. So it means no more Israel. And Israel is not disappearing
A single democratic state for Arabs and Jews sounds quite nice (or would have done if enacted at the time), no?
Israel is already 20% Arab.
