Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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So in other words, the Israelis are taking "human shields" and militarizing civilians spaces exactly like they accuse Hamas of doing.
How in the holy heck do you get to this conclusion?
The IDF putting weapons depots and anti-air batteries and vehicle storage right beside homes and schools would look like what you're talking about. That is not how Israel works. There is not a rocket launcher sticking out of a school window in Israel. You won't see mortar rounds stored in a Synagogue or nursery.
I can't visualize the leap you're trying to make with permitted guns in the home, but I look forward to you trying to make it make sense. Even in Canada I can have guns here at home with me given the right model. Many of my friends do (and they took gun safety classes etc as per the law).
How in the holy heck do you get to this conclusion?
The IDF putting weapons depots and anti-air batteries and vehicle storage right beside homes and schools would look like what you're talking about. That is not how Israel works. There is not a rocket launcher sticking out of a school window in Israel. You won't see mortar rounds stored in a Synagogue or nursery.
I can't visualize the leap you're trying to make with permitted guns in the
Please read this and tell us how you are sorry for being so wrong
“ Some kibbutzim had also developed substantial high-tech and military industries. For example, in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated US$850 million in annual revenue from its military-plastics industry.[5]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz
Kibbutzim began to assume a more prominent military role. Rifles were purchased or manufactured and kibbutz members drilled and practiced shooting. Yigal Allon, an Israeli soldier and statesman, explained the role of kibbutzim in the military activities of the Yishuv:
The planning and development of pioneering Zionist were from the start at least partly determined by politico-strategic needs. The choice of the location of the settlements, for instance, was influenced not only by considerations of economic viability but also and even chiefly by the needs of local defense, overall settlement strategy, and by the role such blocks of settlements might play in some future, perhaps decisive all-out struggle. Accordingly, land was purchased, or more often reclaimed, in remote parts of the country.[16]
Kibbutzniks fought in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, emerging from the conflict with enhanced prestige in the nascent State of Israel. Members of Kibbutz Degania were instrumental in stopping the Syrian tank advance into the Galilee with Molotov cocktails. Maagan Michael manufactured the bullets for the Sten guns that won the war. Maagan Michael's clandestine ammunition factory was later separated from the kibbutz and grew into Israel Military Industries.
So kibbutzes have billion dollar military industries, are used to defend against invasions, and they made bullets for guns.
I can tell you with certainty this type of bomb does not, on its own, cause the kind of damage we saw in Rafah that killed 45 people.
You don't know with any certainty at all, you also don't know how crowded the target are was. Starving women and children in tents with no access to medical aid aren't going to hold up well against bombs.
Dude Sasa is EMPTY right now. I know the Plasan factory very well. They started working in plastics in the 80's after I left. They then got the contract to manufacture armor plates.
I said pages and pages back that SOME Kibbutz out of the 270+, do have modern industry. And SOME of that industry sells to the IDF and to other places globally. We've covered this.
This is like EVERY city man. In the city I live in now in Canada, there are companies that make software and hardware for our army and other armies. Is my city a military installation? There's a kevlar company within a 5 minute drive from me here. Do I live in a military base?
Right now there's a handful of people in Sasa, everyone is evacuated. Does that sound like an army base to you? All my people there are living with family elsewhere, or in hotels, or have permanently moved. Why? Because it's not an army base, it's a little town. And it's funny that of all the ones you chose, you chose the one I spent so much time in. So I think I have a sense...
People in this thread who have been to Sasa: Rafiki
People who talk about Sasa like they know what they're talking about: PW
When Palestinians say it, or when Israelis say it, it basically means 1 state. We can argue semantics but it absolutely does not mean 2 state. So it means no more Israel. And Israel is not disappearing
Fantastic
It sounds nice to you but it is not what either side wants and is not acceptabile
Israel the Jewish state is not disappearing regardless of your wishes
It probably isn't, so why get your panties in a rut over one state when you know the US would never allow it?
Wait. Why are Jewish people entitled to a homeland? I missed that section of law school.
Because I'm against apartheid
Israel has 10 million people, 2 million Muslim 7 million jews 1 million others
The West Bank has 3 million Palestinians
Gaza has 2.5 million
Muslim immediately becomes 7.5 million and the majority population of Israel
So, what?
Jewish and Muslim people are already sharing the territories. Are you saying that Muslims don't have the right to self-determination on the dirt they legitimately occupy?
You act as if an Islamic republic would be inevitable. Negotiating one state would have to include a consensual constitution, of course. If it's impossible due to Islamic conservatism, the Palestinians get perpetual apartheid of their own making.
But this whole "river to the sea" on both sides is pretty insane -- to the point where everyone needs to stop talking about it if they wanna be taken seriously. Two states are also impossible, given the current state of settlements. And two continuous states are doubly impossible for obvious reasons.
Pretending there is a two-state solution is just silly, let alone demonizing those against it.
PW, Nir Oz specialized in plowing, irrigation, orchards, cattle (calves for meat) and chicken coops. The Nirlat factory produced of silicone sealants, paints and building materials, as well as a company for planning and engineering development.
Other tip of the country, but the entire point is this is NOT a military base. It's a farm with some modern industry to keep the lights on since they self-fund.
Kibbutz Be'eri, the other main slaughter house, supported themselves with a printing business. Photo albums, marketing materials, a dairy farm, some agriculture. There's no military anything there.
Again don't try to Israelplain our country to us man. It's insulting and ignorant at this point.
Here is a typical big bad kibbutz in the south. Tremble before the farmer's fields, barns, vineyards, community pool, etc.
This is what everyone is banging on the table to strike as a "military target"
vile...
You don't know with any certainty at all, you also don't know how crowded the target are was. Starving women and children in tents with no access to medical aid aren't going to hold up well against bombs.
A 250-lb bomb could well inflict such heavy casualties on a packed tented area (to which the Israelis had explicitly told people to evacuate). Stories about the bomb setting off a supposed arms dump could conceivably be true but sound like the kind of thing Israeli news managers tend to make up.
Dude Sasa is EMPTY right now. I know the Plasan factory very well. They started working in plastics in the 80's after I left. They then got the contract to manufacture armor plates.
I said pages and pages back that SOME Kibbutz out of the 270+, do have modern industry. And SOME of that industry sells to the IDF and to other places globally. We've covered this.
This is like EVERY city man. In the city I live in now in Canada, there are compa
I wasn’t arguing that they were military installations. I argued that they may be valid targets under Geneva convention because of the different activities different kibbutzes partake in.
You think I am right or you think I am wrong?
Are kibbutzes valid Geneva convention targets due to their historical and present day aid to IDF manufacturing items of war?
please go asap. take them with you. bye
I wasn’t arguing that they were military installations. I argued that they may be valid targets under Geneva convention because of the different activities different kibbutzes partake in.
You think I am right or you think I am wrong?
Are kibbutzes valid Geneva convention targets due to their historical and present day aid to IDF manufacturing items of war?
They are absolutely not valid military targets.
Look, let's take Gaza as an equivalent example. The second you pile weapons and armed combatants firing them into just about any structure, it's fair game (assuming some duty of care for the surroundings). You start launching rockets from a school roof, you are greenlit to hit the school. So likewise if you put an IDF division inside a Kibbutz and you fire mortar rounds from there? Fine, you are in the same situation in reverse and you will never get any objections from me. Hit the IDF division, that's your enemy. Same thing though, duty of care. That doesn't include rape and cutting of senior's heads and burning people in front of families though. That's just a mad massacre.
And if you fired guided missiles from Lebanon at the Plasan factory, you'd potentially be on an edge case worthy of a strike (and not something that applies to the other hundreds of Kibbutzim). Certainly Hezbollah could make a strong case for it (even though it's just civilians working in there assembling things and not soldiers).
But just like in the Gaza example, the rest of the time, that's just where civis live. There's no case for rampaging them and killing everyone you find inside. That's homicidal nonsense used By Oct 7th apologists. And I'll get perm'd before letting that grotesque stuff fly.
if lobbing missiles into refugee camps is fair game then anything is israel is a valid target. deal with it
Have you read the Geneva convention stuff on valid targets? If you support military operations then you are a valid target. Seems pretty clear.
I’m not talking about rampage stuff. I’m talking about legal warfare
Every single young person that puts their life on hold for 3+ years regardless of their actual hopes and dreams after that, does it for family reasons. Every reservist who put his uniform back on this past year did so for family. Almost everyone knew someone affected. It's all about family in the end.
What about the Palestinian families? That’s what held me back from putting a uniform back on
What about the Palestinian families? That’s what held me back from putting a uniform back on
Nobody thinks they deserve the status quo, that's for sure. Their lives could and should look more like the other Arabs in Israel as a starting point (quality of life wise). Naturally that would be with them self-determing themselves, the same right the Jews ask for of themselves.
The simple fact of the mater is that the state of Israel is surrounded by nations comprising hundreds of millions of people that dont think it has a right to exist for historical/tribal/religious reasons that the people living there today have no control over. Even the entities it has peace treaties with, this is done out of expediency and rational acceptance of reality; not out of any belief Israel should be there.
And most of the people Israel is fighting right now, like Hamas and Hezbollah, are not rationale (or at least they will never accept any terms that Israel would also accept), so there is absolutely nothing to be done about them, except making sure they dont have the capacity to harm Israel.
The only thing keeping Israel's enemies at bay is its military and economic strength, and the strength of its allies. No one actually cares about "International Law" on any first principle basis; it is all about the military and economic strength of the people behind it.
So appeals to "International Law" are pretty meaningless except as a means of coalition building. And "allies" of Israel, especially Euros and progressive elites, have to understand they only have influence IF Israel perceives the costs of going against their wishes is worse than the costs of not doing so.
And given Europe wishes groups like Hamas to have the capacity to threaten and attack Israel whenever they feel like it, Israel perceives going after such actors and upsetting their "allies" is a better alternative than letting their allies dictate terms.
if lobbing missiles into refugee camps is fair game then anything is israel is a valid target. deal with it
Still hasn’t found out that Hamas military personnel purposefully entrench themselves within densely populated areas and disguise themselves as civilians. Please brush up on your knowledge of the conflict. Getting all your info from twitch streamers is not recommended.
Well on that front, big things today.
We were talking about Philadelphi in here many moons ago if you look back. They're finally there. They found 20 distinct smuggling tunnels, which is how the weapons and such were getting in. Again I can't imagine why they didn't go there in November, they have their reasons (but I'd love to hear them). We might be talking about far fewer dead possibly if they had.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/a...
Is a decent article on the shift to insurgency now for Hamas. Which is why Gantz/Gallant are on the money with this seemingly impossible path Bibi prefers right now.
Israel is signalling 7 more months of this. Into December, which strikes me as a very purposeful date. I can't see all the tea leaves here to decide the play, but my sense is still what we said before, a play for Trump.
Btw to be clear on why the Rafah tunnels are such a big deal:
Egypt willingly blockades (this we knew)(. But then very willingly oversees a HUGE smuggling operation. The vastness of these tunnels their end and the quotes on per head and per kilo for smuggling....Egypt had turned this into a business of suffering. When I say "Egypt" I mean the politicians being paid off to let that happen. Obviously not everyone is complicit.
I'm not surprised they got upset in public first, because they couldn't afford for Israel to dump them first. May as well dump the person who is about to dump you.
