Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
All of the people I have met that say they hate Jews are white guys
Not sure if I’ve ever met a Palestinian that’s said that but I’ve never been close enough to a Palestinian person where they would confide that in me
My exp doesn’t matter not sure why I wrote it
The Palestinians who leave are not the same as those who rest there do you understand that yes?
There is a selection mechanism which includes possessing marketable skills
Europe hasn’t been a safe place to be Jewish in a long time. Am I just a sheltered and ignorant American?
It's a terrible idea because people naturally tend to migrate and intermingle for lots of reasons and it takes force (i.e., ethnic cleansing) to segregate them into their own little Bantustans. In practice, "let's move all the Turks here and all the Armenians over there and everyone will be happy" leads to the forced displacement of millions of people and enormous human suffering and doesn't make anyone a bit safer. Modern, developed societ
If Pakistan and India were the same country we would have had various civil wars with many many millions of deaths, and very probably a deeply legally oppressed Muslim minority in that country.
It was actually far better for everyone involved to divide the two populations as much as possible into different countries.
Same in the Balkans if we had divided countries precisely among ethnic lines we would have saved a ton of lives.
But this nilly willy idea that people with opposite value systems which hate each others have to coexist in the same country caused many genocides.
If anything we should push for having many more countries, each much more homogeneous. Being a minority in a non ultra civilized liberal western country is an horrific experience in general.
Europe hasn’t been a safe place to be Jewish in a long time. Am I just a sheltered and ignorant American?
The president of my city Jewish association which I don't think reaches 200 members was able in 12 hours to have our communist mayor remove the Palestine flag he had put on the municipal building , over the outrage of basically all non communists here who were aghast to see that flag there.
Sounds safer than most places in the USA
PointlessWords will return to us in a few days after he's had a chance to calm down from whatever this last bit was.
Israel is plotting a huge attack on Lebanon in order to take on Hezbollah, sources close to the terror group have claimed.
Al-Akhbar, a Lebanese newspaper with close links to Hezbollah, reported on Tuesday that Beirut had recently received diplomatic messages warning of the threat of an impending Israeli attack.
Sources reportedly that international delegations raised the alarm, while Britain is reportedly expecting Israel to launch the attack in June, according to Israel's most popular newspaper, Israel Hayom.
Former Lebanese minister Walid Jumblatt said that Qatar - a main funder of Hamas in Gaza - also raised concerns regarding an Israeli assault.
Rocket exchanges between the IDF and Hezbollah over the border with Lebanon have ramped up since Hamas' October 7 terror attack which saw 1,200 people killed.
The rising tensions have led to fears that Israel could be dragged into a war with Hezbollah having already diverted much of its military resources to the campaign against Hamas in Gaza.
On Sunday, the IDF said it had held military drills including "many scenarios that simulate the expansion of the war in the northern arena, and multi-front war scenarios".
Last week, Hezbollah's leader said the group is "pressuring Israel" from the north.
In a speech via video link, he said: "This battle concerns Palestine, but also concerns the future of Lebanon and its water and oil resources.
"This front is a support front that is part of the battle that will determine the fate of Palestine, Lebanon, and the region strategically."
In recent days, the north of Israel has seen huge bushfires as a result of Hezbollah's rockets.
Hezbollah fired at least 40 rockets on Sunday after the IDF carried out strikes against the terror group overnight.
Naftali Bennett, a right-wing Israeli politician and former prime minister, said on X that the north of Israel is "on fire."
He said: "The fire is spreading... we must save the north. Places that were flourishing and beautiful have become cities of ruins."
Hamas official Osama Hamdan on Tuesday appeared to douse optimism on the possibility of a hostage deal after Israel sent it a proposal for a three-phased agreement that reignited hope to see the return of the remaining captives as well as intense political debate.
“We asked the mediators to get a clear Israeli position to commit to a permanent ceasefire and a complete withdrawal from Gaza,” he said at a press conference in Beirut.
Hamas could not agree to a deal without Israeli clarity on these points, he added.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has insisted, including in a phone conversation with French President Emmanuel Macron, that Israel must be allowed to continue the war until Hamas is defeated.
He “emphasized that the outline [agreement] allows Israel to realize all of the objectives of the war that it has defined, including the elimination of Hamas,” the Prime Minister’s Office said. “The prime minister stressed that alongside the release of the hostages, this was, and remains, a fundamental objective of Israel in the war, which it is determined to realize.”
Netanyahu’s far-right coalition partners Otzma Yehudit and the Religious Zionist Party have threatened to bolt the coalition if it promises to halt the war before complete victory over Hamas.
The three-phased deal, which is an Israeli proposal, calls for a temporary halt to the fighting during the first phase, during which female, ill, infirmed, and elderly hostages will be freed over a six-week period. On the 16th day of the deal, talks would begin about the second phase, which would set out the terms of the continued lull in the fighting.
Egypt and Qatar, with the support of the US, have been mediating the deal and hope this option will leave enough of a gray area to allow it to move forward.
White House says it received no formal response from Hamas
The White House on Tuesday said it had not yet received a formal response from Hamas. US special envoy Brett McGurk and CIA Director William Burns are expected to travel to the region this week in an attempt to help close the deal, according to media reports.
The US has sought broad international support for the deal, which was first unveiled by US President Joe Biden on Friday. The United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan, and Egypt issued a joint statement in support of the deal, as did the G7. The Biden administration has also sought a UN Security Council resolution backing the deal.
In Washington, US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller on Tuesday said: “The international community must continue to insist that Hamas accept this deal. The proposal on the table is nearly identical to what Hamas said it would accept just a few weeks ago.
“Israel has said it is ready to implement it. It is time to finalize this agreement, put an end to the violence, and build a better future for both Palestinians and Israelis alike... Our focus is trying to get Hamas signed up to this deal so we can get phase one under way. And then 16 days into phase one, we will begin negotiations about how to take phase one to phase two, and we are committed to trying to get it over to the line,” Miller said.
Qatar on Tuesday said it had delivered an Israeli proposal to Hamas that reflected the positions stated by Biden, adding that it was now much closer to the positions of both sides. The US has said it had delivered the proposal to Hamas last Thursday night.
Qatari Foreign Ministry spokesperson Majed Al-Ansari on Tuesday said there should be a clear position from both parties to reach a ceasefire deal.
“We are waiting for a clear Israeli position that represents the entire government in response to the US’s Gaza proposal,” he said. “The ceasefire deal should immediately end the long suffering of all people in Gaza and the hostages and their families and provide a road map for a permanent ceasefire and an end to the crisis.”
Qatar was still waiting for both parties to agree on the language of a deal, Ansari said, adding: “We are now using our best efforts to finalize an agreement.”
Reuters contributed to this article. But it is from the Jerusalem Post
Uk France and Germany are confronting iran about how they are not following the Iran arms agreement
Biden is opposed to confronting them but these European countries are
Good for Israel
Israel is plotting a huge attack on Lebanon in order to take on Hezbollah, sources close to the terror group have claimed.
Al-Akhbar, a Lebanese newspaper with close links to Hezbollah, reported on Tuesday that Beirut had recently received diplomatic messages warning of the threat of an impending Israeli attack.
Sources reportedly that international delegations raised the alarm, while Britain is reportedly expecting Israel to launch the attac
It just makes too much sense for Israel to take care of this problem in the north now while they can. Thousands of residents haven't been able to go back to their homes since the war began. It's time for them to go back and that can only happen with the threat from Hezbollah neutralized.
The north was literally on fire yesterday. 10k dunams burned down, 2500ish acres (I think?). In a place this small that's a lot.
Let's be clear, if there's a fight coming to Hezbollah, they brought this one on themselves dropping down past the agreed demarcation line and firing blindly into Israel on the daily (granted some strikes are pretty darn precise). There's just no ignoring it anymore.
The north was literally on fire yesterday. 10k dunams burned down, 2500ish acres (I think?).
Let's be clear, if there's a fight coming to Hezbollah, they brought this one on themselves dropping down past the agreed demarcation line and firing blindly into Israel on the daily (granted some strikes are pretty darn precise). There's just no ignoring it anymore.[/QUOTE]
Israel is 5.5 million acres in size. 2,500 acres is less than one two thousandth of its area, or 0.05%.
lol
And why "this"? You're not even there yet you keep using "we" and "this".
which american states don't recognize Biden as president and the federal constitution as the law of the land?
A state can't recognize anyone as president. But there are many people in many states, including many of their representatives in congress, who don't recognize Biden as having been constitutionally elected and the "proper ruler".
A state can't recognize anyone as president. But there are many people in many states, including many of their representatives in congress, who don't recognize Biden as having been constitutionally elected and the "proper ruler".
a state can certainly try to secede, which is what Gaza did from the WB. but you know your example was complete nonsense as it isn't about private citizens thinking elections were rigged rather public authorities not recognizing other public authorities in Palestine.
for some reason you want to draw an equivalence that doesn't exist and you keep going
Let's be clear, if there's a fight coming to Hezbollah, they brought this one on themselves dropping down past the agreed demarcation line and firing blindly into Israel on the daily (granted some strikes are pretty darn precise). There's just no ignoring it anymore.
Israel is 5.5 million acres in size. 2,500 acres is less than one two thousandth of its area, or 0.05%.
And why "this"? You're not even there yet you keep using "we" and "this".
I'm talking relative to that tip of the North, which is a tiny place. Which you'd know, if you had ever visited or were from there. Israel is 10km at the slimmest part.
THERE, it's 15 km end to end. Which again, you'd know if you'd ever been to Kiryat Shmona. So those acres are a BIG part of the region.
As to your other question, if you haven't figured it out yet, I'm just going to leave it.
Hamas official Osama Hamdan on Tuesday appeared to douse optimism on the possibility of a hostage deal after Israel sent it a proposal for a three-phased agreement that reignited hope to see the return of the remaining captives as well as intense political debate.
“We asked the mediators to get a clear Israeli position to commit to a permanent ceasefire and a complete withdrawal from Gaza,” he said at a press conference in Beirut
At this point we all know that Hamas cannot/will not be releasing live hostages (especially the young women), and all discussion centered around such an event happening is completely bad faith. So they are demanding Israel completely leave before they invariably break any such bad faith agreements; with the logic once Israel leaves there is a good chance they never come back, regardless if Hamas breaks the agreement.
I honestly have no clue what the Biden administration is doing; basically trying to pressure Israel to accept Hamas's terms by lying that it is actually Israel's terms, and Israel isn't accepting their own proposed deal. Very weird.
I suspect what is really going on is there are voices in the Biden administration that are sympathetic to Hamas and indifferent to Israeli hostages, and are doing everything they can to get Israel to leave while Hamas stays in power and doesn't deliver any live hostages.
Trolly is arguing that Jews are safe in a lot of places, and I'm saying it's still natural for people to want to come together and form political units so the formation of Israel was kind of normal in the course of human events. Trolly is right though that these kind of events tend to be violent disruptive events and not libertarian gatherings of like minded people respecting other's rights even in the best of circumstances.
My other point
Actually, there was very little appetite for Zionism in the Jewish diaspora, until historical contingencies made it a necessity. Even when antisemitism made it dangerous for Jews in parts of Europe, most of the Jews tried to emigrate to the US. There was very little interest in the Zionist project.
And the Mizrachi Jews showed little to no interest in Zionism until persecution by the Arabs in their native lands (as collective punishment for Israel and more largely the Arab ethnofascist movements of the 20th century) made staying there untenable.
Given what had to happen to make Israel actually happen, it is very easy to imagine a less bloody history where Zionism never really took off (in the same way Greek movements to retake Constantinople after the fall of the Ottoman Empire never took off).
But once historical contingencies made Israel became a reality, the entire world really fumbled the ball not finding a way to more effectively deal with Arab belligerence and unwillingness to accept reality, and allowing things to get this point to no ones benefit.
I don't know why you'd be so glib about something like this. It would be like the United States losing an area slightly larger than Rhode Island. It's not nothing.
It's so much more ignorant than this though.
Over 50% of the acres he listed are the Negev desert alone! Closer to 60% of Israel is true desert or near desert, and can't burn. Then you have the cities.
So you're left with a tiny 1400 sq km area of forest, and 29% of the country is agricultural land. The country definitely doesn't have some random 2500 acres to spare.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024...
As of February there are 135,000 Israelis displaced due to the war
135k
So stop with the who cares hezbollah is bombing civilian area nbd crap
