Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

Putin is willing to negotiate under very favourable terms to him (he keeps everything he has today, Ukraine not in NATO, Ukraine not in the EU).

That is an ultimatum, not a negotiation.

he might be unwilling to negotiate because hes in a position of power but the allies were never willing. He was definitely willing early on

and honestly what's wrong with that? Its obvious a bad outcome for Ukraine but why should I care that russia keeps 90% russian crimea and 80% russian donbas. as Ukraine is losing its up to them to negotiate at a loss or keep fighting its their choice(but not really) but they risk losing more if they go on. If they had negotiated while they were ahead the deal would be alot brighter. Hes actually the one more likely to give concessions in a peace deal because he has alot of land like kharkov he can't really hold longterm

blaming all the non negotiation on Russia is weird since Ukraine's official stance is no negotiation. We dont know what russia was willing to negotiate because we never tried.

The allies have always been willing, but they leave it up to Ukraine.

What's wrong about "negotiating" (accepting Putin's ultimatum) is that it guarantees a favorable setting for Russia to invade again. Ukraine wants to live freely without fear of being invaded, as they deserve.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to say that "Russia is winning". It was wrong earlier this year, but a far more defensible stance. Russia had several advantanges and instead of asking for peace they chose to increase the frequency of attacks, and they got very little out of it. Now that their advantages are dwindling it makes no sense for Ukraine to stop the war since they believe stopping the war only serves to help Putin set up another invasion with more favorable circumstances for Russia.

Ukraine did negotiate when they were ahead, Russia refused to negotiate and instead gave an ultimatum as if Russia were winning and not losing. So no, "If they had negotiated while they were ahead the deal would be alot brighter" is an objectively false statement.

This is entirely Russia's fault because they invaded. If they want to end the invasion they can do so at any time. Ukraine does not have that luxury. We do know what Russia was willing to negotiate, because it was tried and Russia showed they were not actually willing to negotiate, they were only willing to give ultimatums.

Just highlighting this again since it got lost in pages worth of Russian propaganda trying to justify their right to invade neighbors for imperialism.

This is a game changer if true. The glide bombs are probably Russia's #1 advantage at the moment.

Could they put something in the negotiations that Ukraine is protected by NATO going forward as a deterrent to future invasions? I'm sure Poland would be happy to come in and do a lot of the heavy lifting if the need arised.

That's what they're doing now by offering bilateral security agreements. They're trying to make it so it doesn't need to be a factor in negotiations.

Negotiating anything with Putin's Russia is pointless, because he has shown he is willing to ignore agreements made by the Russian government.

In the 90s, as part of an agreement where Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weaponry in its territory, the Russian government agreed to permenantly respect the territory of Ukraine. Putin broke this agreement at least as early as 10 years ago when he took over Crimea.

This war will not end until Ukraine is completely defeated or gives up, or until Putin is deposed or dies. I certainly hope it's the latter.

No Russia cant just "end it". Ukraine would even demand Crimea back which is just absolute dream world with the current situation. The fact they have demanded Crimea back in any negotiations has always been a huge overreach and a non starter for any actual peace to occur.

I get it they are the invaders but this is the real world they hold 1/3rd of the country They wont just "leave' because its the right thing to do you have to negotiate.

"Negotiating anything with Putin's Russia is pointless"

Actually he will be dead in 5 years and the west can rearm Ukraine much faster then Russia can rebuild so it actually makes strategical sense. Russia is a declining state

That dude? He seems so healthy. Not sure we'll be so lucky.

In 5 years he's still going to be 5 years younger than Biden is TODAY

You don't think Russia could stop their attacks and withdraw their troops from all the places they didn't control two years ago? They wouldn't have to withdraw from Crimea. Sure, Ukraine is still going to say it is rightfully their territory (which is true), but they aren't going to try to take it back.

Again moving target, you didn't address the "ukraine is completly done because it lost millions of prime age citizens, unless they miracolously create conditions for them to come back" part of the problem.

He seems to have been suffering from several health issues in the last few years, but I don't expect him to keel over of natural causes before Ukraine is a shell of a country.

But you never know, we could get lucky. And important people in Russia seem to have a lot of problems with plane crashes and eating things that don't agree with them and falling out of windows. We can only hope that Putin has one of these issues in the near future.

I am not because many member states of the EU have a very different opinion of the I/P situation compared to russia/ukraine.

There is an overlap of tankies pro Hamas and pro Putin sure, but a LOT of people hate Bibi but hate Putin in the EU

they ain't coming back why address something thats kind of irrelevant. that was random

There's a nuclear submarine standoff south of FL between the US and Russia which I'm sure most people are unaware of. We're litterally about to be headed into a new cuban missle crisis, but the weapons today are much more advanced so it would be more wide spread and catastrophic than it woulda been 50 years ago. They have weapons that can electronically wipe out the united states and put us back into the stone age but no one is even talking about it and the fake cabal owned media will only try to paint their propaganda such as "lab grown meat will be fed to US troops to protect our carbon foot print (because when cows burp they produce green house gases). If an enemy such as the DSC infiltrated many countries for control, wouldn't it make sense that their next step would somehow be to cripple it's military? And what not an easy way to do it, feed them lab grown chemicals that will ultimately put them all half to sleep while they finish the job. Of course it's just a "conspiracy theory" but it's over 100% possible.
By helping Ukraine "defeat" Russia, we've now become an even bigger enemy to Russia, even though Putin knows he's fighting against the DS and the DS infiltrated gov't agencies so Putin isn't gonna be tryna kill the citizens he'll be trying to take out the DS globalists that are still left with the help of a global alliance. This is literally a war between good and evil. If you support the byden administration you're supporting a very evil empire. The proof will be in the pudding.

Far right media is going nuts over this.

I'm sure this falls under yet another "not a nuclear threat" from Putin to some and at the same time it's proof that Putin is too strong and we need to back down!

This is an incredibly minor footnote in history, here Ill write it: "After yet another blunder, this time into Kharkiv, Putin found himself in an even worse position and once again threatened the Unites States in his throes of desperation."

In this war of good and evil, the side committing genocide and launching the largest invasion since ww2, and is now threatening nuclear war if they aren't allowed to invade and genocide, is the "good side" while the team against genocide, invasions, and nuclear backmaul are the "evil side"????? No. Delete Twitter, fire the swindler telling you he's CIA, delete Facebook, go touch grass.

Putin is fighting the deep state with a global alliance.
Iran and North Korea on that team?
You are obviously against the deep state, right? Since none of the sheep are going to rise up domestically, an outside force may be needed to save us. We're talking fate of the world stuff here. With that perspective, do you support Putin in his effort fighting this common enemy to all people?
Do you still reside in America? In your opinion, what would be the best country to live in for safety (besides NZ).

Shouldn't think so, no.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/p...

[QUOTE=Putin]In the West, the thesis that Russia started the war within the framework of a special military operation, that it is the aggressor, is constantly being repeated. Therefore, it is possible to attack its territory with Western weapons. Allegedly, Ukraine defends itself and can do so," the president said. "I would like to emphasize once again that Russia did not start the war. It is the Kiev regime, after the citizens of a part of Ukraine declared their independence in accordance with international law, that started hostilities and continues them. This is aggression,[/QUOTE]

So those are putin's words. And the statement from the Russian Bespalov.

So putin is definitely saying that its not an unproked invasion. We can all agree on that.
Without external help we can all agree ukraine has no chance.

And ukraine war bonds won't sell.

These are accepted facts and I provide some sources for my assertions about what was said right?

And we have a warmongering Lyndsay graham talking about the resources they can capitalize on:

Was there a nuclear threat I missed?

When Prigozhin turned back on putin and russia there was something strange about it. It looked a like a mobilization rather than a mutiny. Game theoretically. I wanted to explore that in this thread, but was met with resistance to the point where it was disallowed.

I want to inquire into what the mainstream narrative of Prigozhin's move was at the time with respect to putin, and how its understood now that new information has come to light on the subject.

Yes, we can all agree about what Putin said. However, most of us don't take his word as gospel.