Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Without going to the dictionary it seems pretty clear to me that the distinction is one of ownership. An invasion seeks to wrest control and ownership of land, utilities and people and implies a presence there after the hostilities.
Without going to the dictionary it seems pretty clear to me that the distinction is one of ownership. An invasion seeks to wrest control and ownership of land, utilities and people and implies a presence there after the hostilities.
It isn't , you need the invader to be a state, otherwise you guys would accept the claim that illegal immigrants are invaders, which you don't (correctly imho unless organized by a foreign country to en masse enter illegally)
I can confidently predict you're right about that, but not for the reasons you think you are.
Any site producing armaments has always been claimed to be a legitimate military target. You don't get to change history because your side is facing it now.
It isn't , you need the invader to be a state, otherwise you guys would accept the claim that illegal immigrants are invaders, which you don't (correctly imho unless organized by a foreign country to en masse enter illegally)
wtf? Immigrants don't seek to wrest control and ownership of land, utilities and people - they become part of the population.
Britain was protecting Palestine. People conducted guerilla warfare operations, and defeated the British that were protecting the Palestinians. Then the people claimed a new state (Israel) on the Palestinians land.
That's not quite what happened. Britain found the Mandate impossible to administer, because the Jews and Arabs were too keen on fighting, and the Palestine Act 1938 committed Britain to leave by May 1948 regardless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_the... The British White Paper of 1939, in the wake of the failure of the London Conference (where the Arabs and Jews wouldn't even sit in the same room), rejected the Peel Commission's recommendation of partition and called for a Jewish homeland in a multi-ethnic Palestine, limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 permits up to 1944, with further permits at the discretion of the Arab majority, and limited the ability of Jews to buy up Arab land across most the Mandate territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Pape... Obviously the Jews did not like this much.
Germany's extermination policy during the war changed the calculation, and post-war British prime minister Attlee said it would be wrong to fight the Jews with full force after what the enemy had just done to them. The British Mandate was legally bound to end anyway, and the British handed off to the UN, who resurrected the partition idea. The Zionist terrorist gangs were militarily quite incapable of defeating British 6th Airborne Division, the main formation in Palestine at the time, but it was British policy not to take the gloves off and fight a war against the Jews. So the UN Partition Plan, accepted by the Jews but not by the Arabs (and the Arabs may not have been wrong to demur, because the Jews always intended to violate the Plan and seize more land), took effect.
I don't agree with your characterization of events (so don't assume that me not challenging them item by items means I'm agreeing with them). But as it relates to THIS war, I'm going to align myself with the history books, academics, historians, etc. You will find that for the rest of your natural life and beyond, this war will be recorded as having started Oct 7th, 2023, when Hamas invaded Israel. If you want to an advance some alt-theory
Oct 7 was a raid rather than an invasion, not unlike the Israeli raid on Jordan in November 1966 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samu_incid...), though Oct 7 was much bloodier. Israel's justifiable retaliatory attack on Gaza is an invasion, since the Israelis seek to establish control of the territory they're attacking, the trouble being that (a) they don't seem to be establishing secure control and (b) they don't know what to do with the place afterwards even if they did control it.
It really isn't. The review in April by former French foreign minister Catherine Colonna found that Israel could offer no evidence in support of this claim.
Colonna didn't find proof of Hamas members controlling UNRWA but that's not the rationale I use to consider UNRWA part of Hamas.
I consider UNRWA part of Hamas because for whatever reason, no matter intentions, Hamas ends up controlling a large portion of UNRWA aid.
Also, not being explicitly against Hamas and wanting it's destruction at all costs is already in a way siding with Hamas.
Any site producing armaments has always been claimed to be a legitimate military target. You don't get to change history because your side is facing it now.
Even if we were to take you at face value that setting men, women and children/seniors on fire, cutting their heads off, raping them, kidnapping them etc.. is what you'd do to a site producing armaments, the fact remains not a single Kibbutz in the Oct 7th region produced such things. Not one.
PW (and now your) statement is akin to "all villages produce weapons"
Which of course fails immediately. There are a few Kibbutz of the hundreds who have a hand in such things. Not one of them was struck Oct 7th.
If you're to be believed then attacks on kibbutz's were unjustified - my limited knowledge of them always had them more as communal farms anyway -nbut isn't this similar to the people saying it's fine for the IDF to mass slaughter civilians because some of them might be harbouring terrorists?
If you're to be believed then attacks on kibbutz's were unjustified.
My limited knowledge of them always had them more as communal farms anyway.
These particular agricultural co-ops full of villagers were targeted for the sole reason that their layouts were known (as well as being soft targets, security wise). They were known because Gazans got work permits to go work there in the various industries they'd participate in. One had a print shop for example. The Be'eri printing factory.
What's altogether the most tragic is that of all the villagers, these ones were the most committed to peace and the most committed to a Palestinian state. Some famously so. Of all the Israelis to kill, these were the biggest allies of the bunch. That, and a music festival (organizers created for peace).
Right, but re. my edit if some kibbutzs are involved with producing armaments isn't this similar to the people saying it's fine for the IDF to mass slaughter civilians because some of them might be harbouring terrorists?
Even if we were to take you at face value that setting men, women and children/seniors on fire, cutting their heads off, raping them, kidnapping them etc.. is what you'd do to a site producing armaments, the fact remains not a single Kibbutz in the Oct 7th region produced such things. Not one.
PW (and now your) statement is akin to "all villages produce weapons"
Which of course fails immediately. There are a few Kibbutz of the hundreds who h
Why’re you ignoring the weapons storage and use as communication centers?
What weapons? What weapons storage?
Anywhere with a cell phone is a communications center in Israel, so I don't know what to do with that red herring.
Spoiler
This may also lead to some unintended consequences for you btw, on where Hamas stores rockets and weapons
Can’t find my cites. I could be wrong.
During WW2 when you talked to Americans and Brits, you got very similar testimonials. It was a very common position. Not a majority one, but still common enough that you'd hear it a lot.
That's what living in that particular (Israeli) pressure cooker does to some. Your parents, their parents, and their parents have never been entirely secure in their homes. You get generational hate, and in some it looks just like that. Specially if they've lost people.
We have to hope for a better day.
American and British people yes. Hopefully not commander rank in the Army like this disgusting guy.
I’m going to report this post for racism and lying. Israel invaded three times before Oct 7 and they killed thousands of civilians. You knew that right?
Here is accurate information. Question is, were you lying or were you ignorant? And will you lie in the future now that you know the truth?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Isr...
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Racism?? Lol
Dude, everyone knows what happened a hundred years ago, we don't need screen shots of Wikipedia.
We're working with what happened recently, and most people believe that hamas started the most recent round of violence.
Poll shows rise in support for armed struggle by Palestinians
RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Support for armed struggle as the best means to end Israeli occupation and achieve statehood rose among Palestinians while backing for the militant group Hamas also increased slightly in the last three months, according to an opinion poll.
The polling was carried out some eight months since the start of the Gaza war, which began when Hamas fighters stormed communities in Israel, killing some 1,200 people and abducting another 250, according to Israeli tallies, prompting the Gaza war.
The poll found that two-thirds thought the Oct. 7 attack was a correct decision - a 4 percentage point drop from the previous poll. The decrease came from Gaza, where 57% of respondents said the decision was correct, down from 71% in March.
It showed that about 80% of Palestinians in Gaza had lost a relative or had a relative that had been injured in the war.
