Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
That's strange because just this morning you were willing to go by Britannica's definition. It's now transparently clear that you aren't arguing in good faith, so I'll let it drop.
Lol, no, you're the one who is deliberately lying. I was fine with the Britannica definition posted by Luciom, and I still am. Under that definition nothing IDF has been accused of would be considered rape.
But again, it's not important what you or I or Luciom considers to be rape.
The important thing is that the UN does not believe that the IDF committed rapes, while they believe that hamas and other Palestinian groups did commit many rapes.
You're all getting timeouts if you can't stop calling one another liars. This is warning #2!
Chillrob, I’m just asking you to stop because in good faith I assume you’ll heed a reasonable request
Racism?? Lol
Dude, everyone knows what happened a hundred years ago, we don't need screen shots of Wikipedia.
We're working with what happened recently, and most people believe that hamas started the most recent round of violence.
I’m going to report this post for racism and lying. Israel invaded three times before Oct 7 and they killed thousands of civilians. You knew that right?
Here is accurate information. Question is, were you lying or were you ignorant? And will you lie in the future now that you know the truth?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Isr...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
do you think the 2000s are a hundred years ago? you didnt read what you quoted, did you?
The important thing is that the UN does not believe that the IDF committed rapes, while they believe that hamas and other Palestinian groups did commit many rapes.
actually, they determined that the only systematic sexual and gender-based crimes were committed by the iof; "either ordered or condoned"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIws7zgD...
(lede buried at the end)
During WW2 when you talked to Americans and Brits, you got very similar testimonials. It was a very common position. Not a majority one, but still common enough that you'd hear it a lot.
That's what living in that particular (Israeli) pressure cooker does to some. Your parents, their parents, and their parents have never been entirely secure in their homes. You get generational hate, and in some it looks just like that. Specially if they've
But Chopper, how do we hope for a better day with the most moral army in the world amputating the hands of detainees? Doesn't that poison tomorrow?
says committed after oct 7 and ordered or condoned by IDF authorities. starts around 10:30
American and British people yes. Hopefully not commander rank in the Army like this disgusting guy.
Sadly commanders at the highest levels for the Americans and the Brits. The Brits were much worse.
The book of Masters of the Air is a good look into that, the show lead me to read it.
A lot of the command just viewed mass civilian death tolls on the German side as part of what would make the war end in due time. And even millions wasn't too many if they had to get that high up.
Sadly commanders at the highest levels for the Americans and the Brits. The Brits were much worse.
The book of Masters of the Air is a good look into that, the show lead me to read it.
A lot of the command just viewed mass civilian death tolls on the German side as part of what would make the war end in due time. And even millions wasn't too many if they had to get that high up.
Of course, they were fighting against fascism rather than for it.
An extreme willingness to inflict civilian casualties is a characteristic which needs to be looked at based on when and why it happens.
During WW2 this was a common part of war, the threat was existential and the militaries were matched close enough that a win was bound to be costly. Within this framework the deaths of large number of civilians was in line with morals.
We have had a good deal of time to learn from WW2 and have a better set of morals for dealing with war. An extreme willingness to accept civilian casualties is no longer viewed as moral. This war is not a (direct) existential threat, Israel could accomplish the vast majority of their objectives while limiting civilian casualties drastically, and in the long run it's possible Israel would be better off by just ending the hostilities.
These aren't the same scenarios. WW2's willingness to condone civilian casualties was born out of pragmatism. Israel's willingness to condone civilian casualties is because they no longer value Gazans as much as another human. It needs to change.
During WW2 when you talked to Americans and Brits, you got very similar testimonials. It was a very common position. Not a majority one, but still common enough that you'd hear it a lot.
That's what living in that particular (Israeli) pressure cooker does to some. Your parents, their parents, and their parents have never been entirely secure in their homes. You get generational hate, and in some it looks just like that. Specially if they've
both sides
It's a downwards cycle. The only answer is to stop
An extreme willingness to inflict civilian casualties is a characteristic which needs to be looked at based on when and why it happens.
During WW2 this was a common part of war, the threat was existential and the militaries were matched close enough that a win was bound to be costly. Within this framework the deaths of large number of civilians was in line with morals.
We have had a good deal of time to learn from WW2 and have a better set o
Bolded is incorrect. The miscalculation is you view the war against Hamas as THE war. That is one of 7 fronts. The biggest front being the one directly to the North, which is about to become THE front.
I'm not saying more care couldn't be taken in earlier phases of this war. But I am saying you're gravely mischaracterizing the scale of this war, who Israel is fighting (and where), what it will take Israel to be victorious, and the notion that they'll easily pull this off. Absolutely nobody in Israel believes this to be true. And they're mobilizing their ultra orthodox now (to great scandal) because they are desperately short on manpower to keep up with all these fronts. They're already short on weapons.
This is a proxy war with Iran (of this there is ZERO doubt). The Gazans are just some of the people stuck in the middle of it. Once again, like old times, Israel is effectively surrounded. We'll see who will answer the call now, and who will not.
do you think the 2000s are a hundred years ago? you didnt read what you quoted, did you?
I read that and the other posts you made which were pasted from Wikipedia including things that happened as long as a hundred years ago.
I also read you saying another post was racist which had absolutely nothing to do with race (or even ethnicity or religion). I guess you're not going to explain though.
actually, they determined that the only systematic sexual and gender-based crimes were committed by the iof; "either ordered or condoned"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIws7zgD...
(lede buried at the end)
but i'm sure this will change nothing, and it'll still be beyond cool to come in here and say that all palestinians are sub-human rapist monsters who deserve extermination, because we live in bizarro hell world
Correct, they said that Hamas committed rapes and the IDF committed sexual and gender-based crimes, which we can speculate about, but definitely was not rape.
This is exactly what Luciom and I said several times. It really makes no sense to angrily agree with us.
And if anyone does that cool stuff you mention it will be a big change, because no one has said anything like that.
You said Hamas/palestine/gaza invaded first. This is a lie.
Please own up to your lie.
IDF people invaded in the 40s, in 2008 and in 2014 , each time killing thousands of Palestinians.
The Arabs were the ones who didn't take the deal and then started a war. They told the people to evacuate and that they would be able to come home after they had killed all the Jews. They failed to do so and here we are. Home is now Gaza. There will be no going back. The Jews back then would have happily shared their land.
Bolded is incorrect. The miscalculation is you view the war against Hamas as THE war. That is one of 7 fronts. The biggest front being the one directly to the North, which is about to become THE front.
I am fully aware of this, and I have written about it several times ITT now. Ultimately the 7 front war (which is an existential threat) did not emerge as a result of October 7. The response from the existential threat was underwhelming (thankfully) and we are in a situation that is largely IDF vs a far weaker enemy in Gaza. No one is going to give leniency to IDF to kill civilians when they look at the disparity in power between Israel and Gaza. If anything, what we've seen is that Israel's response is doing more to provoke the other fronts than October 7 did to stir them into action. This is drastically different from WW2.
I'm not saying more care couldn't be taken in earlier phases of this war. But I am saying you're gravely mischaracterizing the scale of this war, who Israel is fighting (and where), what it will take Israel to be victorious, and the notion that they'll easily pull this off. Absolutely nobody in Israel believes this to be true. And they're mobilizing their ultra orthodox now (to great scandal) because they are desperately short on manpower to keep up with all these fronts. They're already short on weapons.
This is a proxy war with Iran (of this there is ZERO doubt). The Gazans are just some of the people stuck in the middle of it. Once again, like old times, Israel is effectively surrounded. We'll see who will answer the call now, and who will not.
Not only am I not saying that Israel can "pull this off easily", I'm saying it's impossible for Israel to pull off what they're attempting. This is another grave miscalculation that Israel is making. They are fighting their war using methods frowned on by all of their allies in order to keep chasing a victory that all of Israel's allies know is out of reach, in several cases because they've been in this situation and now know it's a quagmire. Israel would do well to listen to its allies and show far more restraint.
I agree this is a proxy war with Iran, but I do not agree with Israel's method of fighting it. Israel needs to win over allies in the Middle East, if they are incapable of doing that then they are doomed long term. Fighting in this style will guarantee Israel is fighting a forever war, and could eventually lose the support of Israel's allies. They need a drastic shift back to following western military protocol and adhering to international law.
Israel's willingness to condone civilian casualties is because they no longer value Gazans as much as another human. It needs to change.
I give Israel the benefit of the doubt. I think any country that puts them in the situation where they feel they need to invade, they're going to have the same doctrine. It's not Gaza specific.
Maybe Lebanon will confirm this.
BGP can you name a war where foreign civilians were treated better than how Israel treats Gaza residents by invading armies in the last 30 years? or 50?
Afghanistan.
