Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I think the historical role of political Islam and religious motivated xenophobia in the belligerence against Israel has been very understated by liberals. But even if this was true, it doesn't address the current political landscape very well.
In 2024 pretty much all the hostility against Israel is being done by Islamists for explicitly religious reasons. And support from the worldwide Ummah for Islamists fighting Israel is high explici
A bit of survivorship bias here, the "pretty much all the hostility" part is because the secular groups that opposed Israel were wiped out and the Islamists remain. The point of highlighting the secular groups is to avoid the " ancient animosities, backward religion, blah blah blah" smokescreen and to highlight that, perhaps, these people have perfectly secular reasons for being upset.
A bit of survivorship bias here, the "pretty much all the hostility" part is because the secular groups that opposed Israel were wiped out and the Islamists remain. The point of highlighting the secular groups is to avoid the " ancient animosities, backward religion, blah blah blah" smokescreen and to highlight that, perhaps, these people have perfectly secular reasons for being upset.
No they got bought by American money.
Because you can buy out rational people
More of a carrot and stick approach. It's not like secular anti Israel groups were purely bought out. There was some slight assassination going on as well. Of course, it makes it a lot easier to imagine people you don't like as purely irrational, because it makes it a lot easier to ignore what they say. Of course if someone were to say that Jewish people don't value life and enjoy killing babies and the link they'd (rightly) be accused of anti Semitism, but say the same about Islam and well that's just common sense.
wow just coming out and yelling the loud part out loud now:
and i apologize for earlier saying that 5% of israel oppose this genocide, apparently it's only 1-2%. my bad. will strive to be better in the future
More of a carrot and stick approach. It's not like secular anti Israel groups were purely bought out. There was some slight assassination going on as well. Of course, it makes it a lot easier to imagine people you don't like as purely irrational, because it makes it a lot easier to ignore what they say. Of course if someone were to say that Jewish people don't value life and enjoy killing babies and the link they'd (rightly) be accused of a
well you seem to understand.
rational people can be convinced by changing their payoff matrix and it happened systematically.
fully irrational zealots have to be carpet bombed to nothingness or slaughtered in other ways. I am not saying this of "Islam". I am saying this of Hamas and related radical groups.
well you seem to understand.
rational people can be convinced by changing their payoff matrix and it happened systematically.
fully irrational zealots have to be carpet bombed to nothingness or slaughtered in other ways. I am not saying this of "Islam". I am saying this of Hamas and related radical groups.
Doing things you like is not the definition of rational nor is doing things you dislike irrational
Because religious calculus can be irrational for very long.
And you can't compromise with people who are actually (not only rethorically) willing to have their children die for their causes in any amount, for generations.
When people who provenly act like that tell you they want you and your family and your friends all dead, you gotta believe it's true. Not a chest pounding form of negotiation.
And you gotta act accordingly.
Meaning?
meaning kill each and every one of them. every Hamas member, affiliate or material supporter, and the same for smaller islamist terrorist groups.
that includes every single person in the "political" arm of Hamas ofc . there is no moderate political arm of Hamas.
yes this includes every single employee of every "ministry" of Hamas. and everyone who helped them at any stage achieving Hamas aims including family members.
every spokesperson, everyone driving them around and so on
So it's ok now for non-Jewish people to refer to the Israeli regime as Nazis. Noted, thanks.
meaning kill each and every one of them. every Hamas member, affiliate or material supporter, and the same for smaller islamist terrorist groups.
that includes every single person in the "political" arm of Hamas ofc . there is no moderate political arm of Hamas.
yes this includes every single employee of every "ministry" of Hamas. and everyone who helped them at any stage achieving Hamas aims including family members.
every spokesperson, every
Same with any Jews who fight for "irrational" religious reasons as well?
wow just coming out and yelling the loud part out loud now:
and i apologize for earlier saying that 5% of israel oppose this genocide, apparently it's only 1-2%. my bad. will strive to be better in the future
Since comments like this are allowed there's no reason for me to participate because when i say something reciprocal ... ifkyk
if I was a rational palestinese person who thought I could win the war I wouldn't try to compromise with irrational radically religious Jews yes.
but I am not, and Palestinians aren't our allies, so why should I care? and btw it's not rational for a Palestinian to think they can win, given the strongest military country in the history of the world is against them (the USA).
the only rational action for a Palestinian is to flee Gaza asap (and has been for decades), staying there already shows a significant lack of rationality
I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote a different post asserting Israel's actions will just radicalize more Gazans and perpetuate the conflict.
You could make the exact argument the other way around. Why is it completely Israel's moral and strategic obligation to moderate, and Arabs/Palestinians are attributed no agency at all.
if I was a rational palestinese person who thought I could win the war I wouldn't try to compromise with irrational radically religious Jews yes.
but I am not, and Palestinians aren't our allies, so why should I care? and btw it's not rational for a Palestinian to think they can win, given the strongest military country in the history of the world is against them (the USA).
the only rational action for a Palestinian is to flee Gaza asap (and
OK so just to clarify, the fact that some are fighting for religious motives changes absolutely nothing about what should be done regarding the conflict.
OK so just to clarify, the fact that some are fighting for religious motives changes absolutely nothing about what should be done regarding the conflict.
it does.
if the troops on the ground were motivated (say) by material improvement of their quality of life, there would be ground for compromise.
not some: all fighting groups on the Palestinian side are motivated uniquely by religious fervour. they make it crystal clear in their manifestos. Hamas et al.
it's not SOME. its the whole terroristical insurgency nowadays. every one of them.
there are no secular actors waging war or terror on Israel for material requests
Disgusting nation.
OK so just to clarify, the fact that some are fighting for religious motives changes absolutely nothing about what should be done regarding the conflict.
Literally every group fighting Israel explicitly says they are fighting for religious motives. Who are these imaginary secular groups fighting Israel right now? I can give you a large list of groups that are explicitly religious.
At some point when someone tells you who they are, you have to accept they are telling the truth.
And even if you believe it doesn't make a difference what the motivations are; the simple fact is Palestinians (and their hundreds of millions of supporters in the Ummah) dont have any rationale demands to meet to bring closure to this conflict.
Their demands are completely maximal and unreasonable, have been since day 0, and the liberal world ignoring this and focusing all attention on Israel for 80 years (and constraining Israel's ability to act) is what has got us to this point.
in fact it isn't. rationality under the meaning I am using is about acting for your material self interest
Just because what they believe to be in their material interest is different that what you believe theirs should be doesn't mean they're irrational. There's are plenty of situations where people don't act in their 'material interests' in every avenue of life. Don't mean they're not rational.
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Just because what they believe to be in their material interest is different that what you believe theirs should be doesn't mean they're irrational. There's are plenty of situations where people don't act in their 'material interests' in every avenue of life. Don't mean they're not rational.
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it actually does, lot of crazies around us man.
