The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For context, this is a trans influencer who built a 10 million strong following on TikTok. She took a brand deal with budweiser to post an ad on an instagram, and the anti-trans right went absolutely ballistic, calling for a boycott, condemning the company, and to some perhaps unknowable degree it influenced that Budweiser sales dropped by a 1/4 and
. Dylan speaks more personally about the effect of the hatred on her.
What strikes me about this story is that it is just about visibility. This isn't inclusion in sports or gender-affirming care for minors, it was just that a trans person was visible. This wasn't even visibility in a TV commerical that a poor right-winger is forced to see, it was an ad on her own instagram page. We're all in our own social media algorithm influenced bubbles, but from my vantage point it really has seemed that in the last year or so things have just gotten worse for trans people and the backlash to even minor visibility is growing.
We need to do better.
Yeah, I have no idea why I'm debating this with a poster who is an expert on everything. Carry on.
Yeah, I have no idea why I'm debating this with a poster who is an expert on everything. Carry on.
I am not an expert on everything.
you won't see me talking about sports, astrology or many other topics.
but sure keep going on about how a 16y old with no social life, no social skills and bad looks, coming out as trans, is worse off in anglo countries where majorities of high schoolers are extremely pro lgbtq123abc identification.
notice this doesn't happen at all (big numbers of young girls identifying as trans) in Italy or Greece or Hungary
it's like these people don't have children.
I have a 8y old girl. she is fine as she can navigate the already hellish social landscape girls inevitably end up within. some of her classmates aren't so lucky. I had to hear a mom cry because her daughter wasn't invited to a party.
i had to keep my mouth shut at parents meetings because of the complex intrigue about invites to parties that systematically cut off the ugly girls.
I tried to talk with my daughter in private about inviting the "pariahs" at least when it's her turn to choose but she looked at me as if I wanted to ruin her entire social life.
and she is 8
Your question implies that trans people are choosing to portray as trans because of their surroundings and my response is that nobody in their right mind chooses to be discriminated against
No, it doesn't imply that it was a choice, just that nearly all behavioral traits are affected by environmental factors. A brain changes, it isn't fixed at birth.
it's like these people don't have children.
I have a 8y old girl. she is fine as she can navigate the already hellish social landscape girls inevitably end up within. some of her classmates aren't so lucky. I had to hear a mom cry because her daughter wasn't invited to a party.
i had to keep my mouth shut at parents meetings because of the complex intrigue about invites to parties that systematically cut off the ugly girls.
I tried to talk wi
Or it's like some of these people have children, have spent years in parent meetings and other roles in the education system, but get bored conversing with someone who is a self-declared expert on pretty much everything they post about.
Hey, I've got an 8 year old girl in Italy, so I know all that is needed to be an expert on the education system not just here, but all around the world!
But FWIW, if that's really how it is all across Italy, you might want to check into some of what's happening over here in the way of Social Emotional Learning and teaching kids how to be kind and accept everyone. It's far from perfect, but it's a **** of a lot better than what you're describing. But then again, it's probably a bit too woke for you, so carry on.
But FWIW, if that's really how it is all across Italy, you might want to check into some of what's happening over here in the way of Social Emotional Learning and teaching kids how to be kind and accept everyone. It's far from perfect, but it's a **** of a lot better than what you're describing. But then again, it's probably a bit too woke for you, so carry on.
yes even the idea of looking at what leftists concocted on the topic makes me want to vomit. Social x y is enough for me to use the most basic of heuristics and disregard it completely
Yeah, that close-mindedness of many on the right seems to be working out well...
i had to keep my mouth shut at parents meetings because of the complex intrigue about invites to parties that systematically cut off the ugly girls.
I tried to talk with my daughter in private about inviting the "pariahs" at least when it's her turn to choose but she looked at me as if I wanted to ruin her entire social life.
and she is 8
it works for my daughter.
my role, or purpose, isn't to fix society especially when it's about biology.
it's to acknowledge human biology and do the best to further my interest and my family interest given that.
it's like these people don't have children.
I have a 8y old girl. she is fine as she can navigate the already hellish social landscape girls inevitably end up within. some of her classmates aren't so lucky. I had to hear a mom cry because her daughter wasn't invited to a party.
i had to keep my mouth shut at parents meetings because of the complex intrigue about invites to parties that systematically cut off the ugly girls.
I tried to talk wi
Maybe your daughter goes to an incredibly small school?
This isn't normal in the US. I went to a grade school with ~500 students and there were 30 kids per class and 100 kids per grade. There were kids you didn't know at all, let alone kids not getting invited to parties. That is probably a pretty small school relative to average across the country as well.
But, social hierarchy certainly isn't new. What did you do when you weren't invited to a party? I remember being horribly unpopular all through school and even into my early 20s. Are you trying to claim that we people were never children ourselves?
Some of the people in this forum might know exactly what its like to be fat, unattractive, and unliked, while you simply lament that those people exist.
No, it doesn't imply that it was a choice, just that nearly all behavioral traits are affected by environmental factors. A brain changes, it isn't fixed at birth.
I think this is getting pretty close to calling conversion therapy legitimate and I can't get behind that, but I think I understand where you are coming from.
Maybe your daughter goes to an incredibly small school?
This isn't normal in the US. I went to a grade school with ~500 students and there were 30 kids per class and 100 kids per grade. There were kids you didn't know at all, let alone kids not getting invited to parties. That is probably a pretty small school relative to average across the country as well.
But, social hierarchy certainly isn't new. What did you do when you weren't invi
yes as normal in Italy they have like 3 classes of her age, and anyway we have all courses in the same class, ie you mostly only related with the 20-25 kids of your class. invites are almost exclusive within class.
we are talking Italy, a "big" house here is 1500 sqft, invites are selective, a "big" party is 10 girls.
being a child 20 or 30 or 40 years ago is not useful to understand how kids behave today (imho).
I don't lament ugly heterosexuals exist actually.
i am saying they are bullied 24/7 in schools. kids are kinda evil, even more than republicans (if you can believe that).
because humans are evil.
now in the USA (and anglo world in general) evil didn't disappear but the LGBTQ+123ABC crowd managed to convince a majority of kids non heterosexuals are better people.
which means actual not-super+charismatic heterosexual kids are bullied more than ever, because the aggregate bullying stays the same, it's natural, horrific element of every human group especially when the group is made up of young kids
I wouldn’t say that trans women were born males because they werent. They were assigned a gender different from their actual gender , thats it.
Fine. That's def not a scientific view and certainly not something proven by science. It's really just cheap word play.
Like if you play shell games with words well enough you can make biological sex vanish, replaced entirely by gender identity.
Just watched some Robert Sopolsky vids on this: top Stanford brain researcher. Very sympathetic to trans. Very liberal in his politics. His account is pretty different from yours.
Fine. That's def not a scientific view and certainly not something proven by science. It's really just cheap word play.
Like if you play shell games with words well enough you can make biological sex vanish, replaced entirely by gender identity.
Just watched some Robert Sopolsky vids on this: top Stanford brain researcher. Very sympathetic to trans. Very liberal in his politics. His account is pretty different from yours.
anyone talking of "gender assigned at birth" is a lost cause
now in the USA (and anglo world in general) evil didn't disappear but the LGBTQ+123ABC crowd managed to convince a majority of kids non heterosexuals are better people.
which means actual not-super+charismatic heterosexual kids are bullied more than ever, because the aggregate bullying stays the same, it's natural, horrific element of every human group especially when the group is made up of young kids
None of this is true. When you have to start making up facts to try to make your position sound correct, you clearly are just wrong. We have good data showing how trans and gay kids are bullied at a rate much above the baseline.
None of this is true. When you have to start making up facts to try to make your position sound correct, you clearly are just wrong. We have good data showing how trans and gay kids are bullied at a rate much above the baseline.
you don't have data showing lbgtq+123abc people are bullied more than socially failed heterosexuals.
you have data showing lbgtq+123abc people are bullied more than all heterosexuals which i believe is true.
fitting heterosexuals are still the dominant group (for now) so they bully all others.
we are talking bottom of the pile heterosexuals being motivated to change team (given all it takes is self identification and nothing else).
now in the USA (and anglo world in general) evil didn't disappear but the LGBTQ+123ABC crowd managed to convince a majority of kids non heterosexuals are better people.
Your comment is fairly grounded then you just zing this in there for absolutely no reason.
Its like this mind set that saying "Black Lives Matter" magically makes all black peoples lives perfect and people are jealous of their perfect Black lives and resent that "Black Lives Matter" exist. Having "Pride Month" is a surface level acknowledgement that LGBTQ had a raw deal. Its not a celebration of "better". Its a celebration of acceptance.
It takes a very narrow world view to twist that tiny acknowledgement into something deranged like "non-heterosexuals are better people". Their lives aren't magically perfect or free from discrimination because of a social acknowledgement.
Your comment is fairly grounded then you just zing this in there for absolutely no reason.
Its like this mind set that saying "Black Lives Matter" magically makes all black peoples lives perfect and people are jealous of their perfect Black lives and resent that "Black Lives Matter" exist. Having "Pride Month" is a surface level acknowledgement that LGBTQ had a raw deal. Its not a celebration of "better". Its a celebration of acceptance
for normal people around here pride month is about finding a rainbow flag in front of some international store, having to tell friends/relatives why it's there (they aren't on anglo Twitter), spitting on the floor because of the disgust and moving to another store.
and that's people like me who don't want to use the power of the state to actively damage homosexuals or trans people.
as absurd as it can sound to you I am the "progressive" in most of my circles (and checking national polls, nationally as well).
even the existence of pride month is such a complete absurdity for us you can't probably comprehend.
we give one day for the hundred of thousands of foreign people who sacrificed for all our freedoms, and many people don't even care about that.
a MONTH for perverts? in the actual non derogatory sense ,people with unusual sexual preferences which aren't conducive to generation of life?
it's still kinda bad for some people to live more uxorio (going to live with your gf as an heterosexual, unmarried, couple), imagine how much they want to glorify lesbians using strapons on each others.
tolerating they exist without asking for government intervention against them is already a big deal
even the existence of pride month is such a complete absurdity for us you can't probably comprehend.
[...]a MONTH for perverts? in the actual non derogatory sense ,people with unusual sexual preferences which aren't conducive to generation of life?
I want to publicly state here that posts I find homophobic or transphobic will not be tolerated. Saying that you're making a non-derogatory statement doesn't excuse calling gays perverts. That word has some clear connotation and is not acceptable in this context. Maybe if this were in isolation it wouldn't be a big deal, but your history in this thread today and in the past make it clear what your position is.
you don't have data showing lbgtq+123abc people are bullied more than socially failed heterosexuals.
you have data showing lbgtq+123abc people are bullied more than all heterosexuals which i believe is true.
fitting heterosexuals are still the dominant group (for now) so they bully all others.
we are talking bottom of the pile heterosexuals being motivated to change team (given all it takes is self identification and nothing else).
You have no data at all other than your own 8 y.o. child in Italy. I am basing my opinions on the data we do have and the hundreds of teenage patients I have seen here in the US. I'm in a fairly liberal area, and even here the idea that trans kids are bullied less than ugly cis kids is just absurd.
I want to publicly state here that posts I find homophobic or transphobic will not be tolerated. Saying that you're making a non-derogatory statement doesn't excuse calling gays perverts. That word has some clear connotation and is not acceptable in this context. Maybe if this were in isolation it wouldn't be a big deal, but your history in this thread today and in the past make it clear what your position is.
I mean not even the dictionary (=abnormal and unacceptable sexual behaviour) and the caveat are enough I get it.
Not even when I describe the opinion of Italians not mine (I don't consider gay perverts, most people do around here, and I was talking how the pride month is perceived around here).
This is what I mean with radical leftist bias in the moderation. Can't even express a widely and majoritarian opinion in my country not even validating it, just saying it exists and is common, without a warning.
And it's the whole letter soup not only gays (which should never have been mixed with the other letters to begin with) which people consider that.
This is going to work for sure and people will all fall in line with your preferences
This is odd, since the Bible passages about homosexuality are mostly in the OT, and Jesus said nothing about it.
He was surprisingly cool with prostitutes and other sinners though, so I'm guessing he wouldn't have condemned them.
Recently read about that stuff, it's pretty interesting.
Ancients didn't really have a category for homosexuals.
The especially ancient Jews were nomads clinging to survival so you had a duty to make babies. No homosexuality or abortion, but some also prohibited straight, married sex if the woman was not ovulating. Your sexual energy was just for baby making.
So it wasn't really that there was this class of people called homosexuals who were evil, it was just all sex was to be for babies.
I guess most know Greeks and Romans did lots of homosexual stuff. But "homosexual" wasn't a classification for them either. One scholar says they would speak of a man who prefered banging guys the way we'd speak of a guy who likes blondes or heavy women.
They did make a clear distinction between pitching and catching. One emperor was suspected of having been sexuality submissive earlier in life and got a nasty nick name from his opponents. But, obviously, it didn't stop him from becoming emperor. Whereas, I'd say a gay president was impossible till maybe 20 years ago.
Plus, there were eunuchs.
Most ugly kids weren't picked on in my school, they were just ignored, which is another form of torture in itself but definitely distinct from being singled out and picked on. There wasn't a lot of overt bullying going on at all. It was more bullies picking on smaller kids during sports classes like wrestling and football. Lots of **** talking behind backs.
Things I can remember kids getting bullied over:
This one kid wore leather pants one time
This one kid potentially pooped his pants during football practice
This one kid was smaller than everyone else and kind of annoying. Then his femur got snapped by a bully in wrestling practice and everyone left him alone after that.
It was mostly just random kids getting picked on for random ****.
In fact, one of the uglier girls had a reputation for wearing short shorts that broke dress code and no one bullied her about it.
I mean not even the dictionary (=abnormal and unacceptable sexual behaviour) and the caveat are enough I get it.
Not even when I describe the opinion of Italians not mine (I don't consider gay perverts, most people do around here, and I was talking how the pride month is perceived around here).
This is what I mean with radical leftist bias in the moderation. Can't even express a widely and majoritarian opinion in my country not even validatin
You do know that we can look into Italy's history around LGBTQ and see that outside of ****ing Mussolini your country has been fairly progressive for the past 125 years, right?
edit: I'll say, these numbers do go against the seemingly progressive policy but certainly points to Luciom being more in the minority than the majority
