Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/20...
US says Ukraine can hit inside Russia ‘anywhere’ its forces attack across the border
This should be watched
its so much Russian propaganda that the mods deemed it as such
Ugh
The mods can’t be viewed as infallible
Calling for people to respect Putins peace agreements is horseshit
Rule number one : do not trust Putin. Do not trust Russia
If we could trust them then Ukraine would have its nukes back and Russia would have never invaded
The peace table is an appropriate short term win for Russia. Dont you see their plan? Take back Ukraine little by little every 10 years until it’s done.
We cannot allow Russia to absorb anymore countries.
Victor you gotta realize that as wrong as BGp is about so many things, he is mostly right here about the long term outlooks of this war
No, he js right that Russia can’t be trusted and that it’s Russias fault this war is happening.
nobody can be trusted. thats a dumb metric.
you know that in car crashes they often assign percentages of blame, or fault. one party can be 80% or 70% or 51% or 1% at fault. I dunno, thats a non sequitor that has no relation to this thread. just something I noticed just now.
nobody can be trusted. thats a dumb metric.
you know that in car crashes they often assign percentages of blame, or fault. one party can be 80% or 70% or 51% or 1% at fault. I dunno, thats a non sequitor that has no relation to this thread. just something I noticed just now.
nah sorry man, saying nobody should be trusted so russia shouldnt be trusted the same as other people isnt a sound argument.
You aren't being clever and avoiding the mods, you are just being petty and passive aggressive.
Russia can't be trusted even more than other people can't be trusted. If you "can't trust" Putin as much as you "can't trust" Zelenskyy or Macron or even Xi, then your metric is dumb. He is less trustworthy! That is what people mean when they say he can't be trusted. What you are saying is the same as what most people believe "trusting" is.
When Russia decided to invade Ukraine, what % blame did they have for making that decision? What % did others have and why? You've been asked this for over a year now and refused to answer. Find some courage and back your own argument.
Can you at least answer if the Ukraine war was an avoidable accident like you are suggesting or if at some point one side decided to invade the other?
Victor should absolutely be banned. Sorry, but he's just incapable of productive discussion and insists on being a victim even though he's only a victim of his own bad posting.
guy, this is a politics sub-forum, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you, maybe you should turn everything off and sit in a dark room by yourself and meditate or something. or stop being a baby. you spazz out whenever anyone else posts itt lol. go touch grass, m8
Russia can't be trusted even more than other people can't be trusted. If you "can't trust" Putin as much as you "can't trust" Zelenskyy or Macron or even Xi, then your metric is dumb. He is less trustworthy! That is what people mean when they say he can't be trusted.
what are you basing this on? you just saying things doesn't make them true
When Russia decided to invade Ukraine, what % blame did they have for making that decision? What % did others have and why? You've been asked this for over a year now and refused to answer. Find some courage and back your own argument. Can you at least answer if the Ukraine war was an avoidable accident like you are suggesting or if at some point one side decided to invade the other?
and what does this matter? you don't actually care about his opinion, but no matter what he says you'll call for him to be banned for wrongthink. kool, great game. are you winning, son?
72off, thanks for your input. Unfortunately you're wandering in here over a year late. I handle people disagreeing with me well. I interact with them and discuss things. The problem for over a year now is that Victor refuses to discuss thing, and instead evades his own viewpoints in the manner that I laid out in my previous post. He was just given a month timeout for this and upon his return he is engaging in the same behavior.
Reread the post in that lens instead of me trying to convince someone that they are wrong and I am right and the answer to your questions should be clear.
I understand your desire to white knight for Victor, but it's misplaced.
He was just given a month timeout for this
is this true?
It is my understanding that it was a major part of the reason he was banned.
if it's been over a year of you guys disagreeing about this, maybe take the hint that it's not gonna happen and ignore him, literally, rather than responding to every post he makes. i have plenty of ppl on ignore because all they do is post dumb **** that is 100% wrong, and i don't want to see it. am i doing it wrong, should i instead be campaigning to get them banned?
You aren't being clever and avoiding the mods, you are just being petty and passive aggressive.
Russia can't be trusted even more than other people can't be trusted. If you "can't trust" Putin as much as you "can't trust" Zelenskyy or Macron or even Xi, then your metric is dumb. He is less trustworthy! That is what people mean when they say he can't be trusted. What you are saying is the same as what most people believe "trusting" is.
The trouble with this sort of common percentage argument is that it suggests a 100% total. using percentages is an abuse of language frequently (not saying that's the case here) used to mislead.
If someone commits a brutal murder they are 100% responsible for the brutal murder. If someone else did somethign wrong that helped make it possible then they also have some repsonsibiltiy but it doesn't in any way diminish the responsibility of the person for the murder. Similarly with Putin who is 100% responsible for invading while others also imo bare some responsibility.
The trouble with this sort of common percentage argument is that it suggests a 100% total. using percentages is an abuse of language frequently (not saying that's the case here) used to mislead.
If someone commits a brutal murder they are 100% responsible for the brutal murder. If someone else did somethign wrong that helped make it possible then they also have some repsonsibiltiy but it doesn't in any way diminish the responsibility of the
You might do something that CAUSALLY impacts someone else to do a crime, and yet be 0% responsible.
Like wearing a short skirt "provokes" the rapist.
What the EU, NATO and the USA did wrt Russia wasn't wrong. It might have "provoked" in part the Ukrainian invasion, but in the rapist being provoked by naked skin sense. Not in any moral responsibility sense.
All ex-USSR countries have a fundamental sovereign right to ally with the west if they so choose, and the west agrees.
Expanding NATO is not "wrong" morally. And we have the legal right to try to influence elections in those countries within the rule of law OF THAT COUNTRY in order to have pro-western people elected and pro-russia people kicked out.
And again that is not wrong morally.
What would be the "wrong" actions by the EU, NATO or the USA that bear partial responsibility for Russia invading Ukraine?
The action has to be wrong.
Making it clear they would do nothing if putin invaded. That was wrong
Failing to act to stop putin invading despite the clear danger. That was wrong
Enabling putin by the USA being untrustworthy when it comes to interantional law. That was very wrong.
All these things were wrong and confer responsibity for the invasion. None of them are a defense of putin.
And the failure to do everythign to make damn sure that russia's move towards the west was a success was an appalling mistake by the west.
Chezlaw, I agree and have said similar regarding the %s. I disagree with the car crash example, but if someone wants to use it then they should explain how the example fits.
nobody can be trusted. thats a dumb metric.
you know that in car crashes they often assign percentages of blame, or fault. one party can be 80% or 70% or 51% or 1% at fault. I dunno, thats a non sequitor that has no relation to this thread. just something I noticed just now.
Presumably in this example, Russia has some % to blame, and others have other % they are to be blamed for. Who are the others, what did they do and what is a loose % that they are responsible for?
I do not see another way to address this line of reasoning.
Thae action has to be wrong.
Making it clear they would do nothing if putin invaded. That was wrong
Failing to act to stop putin invading despite the clear danger. That was wrong
Enabling putin by the USA being untrustworthy when it comes to interantional law. That was very wrong.
All these things were wrong and confer responsibity for the invasion. None of them are a defenss of putin. None of them are victim blaming
I'd add more. The failure t
You are going the complete opposite direction than the Putin apologists: USA did not do enough to prevent the invasion.
If USA provoked Putin into acting (a common propaganda point) then USA or allies are the responsible party for this war because Putin had no choice but to invade Ukraine. This is a common propaganda point, and it repeated often, but for some reason no one can really explain what exactly happened that made Putin invade Ukraine.
and now the failure to wholeheartedly back ukraine is very wrong
