Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
Well... it's a point of view.
We are so ignorant here we forgot about the Russian orthodoxy lmao
Well speaking of Putin's upstanding Christian morals, here's a good video on why Putin feels it's important to commit war crimes:
Broken YouTube LinkExtremely depressing read. Putin might have blundered it's 3 day special military operation but he might succeed in making Ukraine a failed state. Such an idiot. And more importantly: not very Christian of him!
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-ec...
https://archive.is/vctWv
The west is the idiot too. So much hubris about how badly it was going for russia while failing abjectively to back ukraine to win.
Disaster for uksaine but also so much more at stake.
Leftists, Marxists, Nazis, Fascists, Commies....it's all semantics. Secular/Atheist/Antichrist ethics vs Christian ethics is a better dichotomy.
You think Putin practices "Christian ethics"? How does he show that?
He claims Russia was provoked, but if so, they should have "turned the other cheek". That's what Christian ethics is.
The irony of this guy saying others project...
Really shows how effective far right propaganda is that we are discussing whether or not someone committing genocide, who regularly tortures, is wanted for kidnapping and brainwashing children, and is responsible for the most deaths of anyone alive, and numerous other crimes, all to satisfy his own ego, has good Christian morals.
what if bub ramblin about. atrocities always happen in war. You cant blame it on a state unless its above average which I have not seen any evidence for. The truth is Ukrainian and russians have close kinship and will treat each other with alot more respect even as war adversary's then lets say muslims and jews. They consider each other the same race or closely related and war crimes are probably at an all time low
Hungary starting to recuit now, too.
Why are you constantly apologizing for war crimes ITT? Why can't you blame the start committing war crimes for committing war crimes? And Russia is committing them at an outrageous rate, if you haven't seen evidence for this it's because you're intentionally ignoring it.
Intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure in order to freeze Ukrainians to death has resulted in two people being charged for crimes against humanity, even after you assured us it's totally fine to target civilian infrastructure in a war.
attacking civilian infrastructure is bad and a war crime? hmm, might want to get on the phone with the United States of America. they might have missed that memo.
We've been over this before. Hitting joint infrastructure can be a viable tactic. When the military has no operations in an area and attacks the infrastructure for no military purpose and instead is focusing on freezing civilians to death, it is a war crime. Feel free to read up on the charges, which I explained in detail last year before they were actually formally charged.
Also: whataboutism. Completely irrelevant for this subject. I'm pretty sure that USA did not commit any war crimes in Ukraine or Russia, so please bring this up in whatever thread you feel is appropriate. Thanks.
its def not irrelevant considering the USA is a major party to this war and is the leader of the "rules based order". its absurd to get mad when Russia acts like the USA and its allies without being similarly critical of the USA and those allies.
Russia is simply playing by the rules as exercised and emphasized by the example of the West. I agree that is bad! Russia should not act like the USA and it is unfortunate that they do.
This is why you're constantly accused of being a Putinista and excusing Russian war crimes. Even if USA committed worse war crimes in the past, it is not relevant here. Russia absolutely not "by the rules as exercised and emphasized by the example of the West".
In the event that USA did what Russia did in Ukraine I would be equally upset about it, so no, it's in no way absurd. What is absurd is this argument.
We've looked at when USA took out the infrastructure in Kosovo and Iraq, they aren't the same. Even if they were, this is a bad argument which is pure whataboutism.
well I think your incomprehension stems from the fact that you dont understand that when I compare Russia to the USA and its Western allies that that is not in fact a compliment but actually a criticism.
I dont think there is really anything I can say to make you overcome that bias.
Really full on projection mode ITT between the ends of the horseshoe. BGnight was correct in one of his critiques, he just didn't see how he suffers from the same flaw.
There hasn't been a single example of when USA acted like Russia did in this war. They are not at all comparable. Even if they did, it's whataboutism to bring it up in here. That's a fact.
Why are you constantly apologizing for war crimes ITT? Why can't you blame the start committing war crimes for committing war crimes? And Russia is committing them at an outrageous rate, if you haven't seen evidence for this it's because you're intentionally ignoring it.
Intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure in order to freeze Ukrainians to death has resulted in two people being charged for crimes against humanity, even after you
thats the thing I do follow it and I barely ever see anything about it. And if its so bad people who didn't seek out pro Ukraine propaganda stuff would know about it. Im not arguing its existence im just saying its pretty reasonable based on world history . War crimes are not based on who started a war. attacking civilian infrastructure is not a war crime
"Power infrastructure has long been considered a valid military objective as long as it supports an enemy army's activities, even if the system also supports the civilian population, writes military law expert Michael Schmitt in the Articles of War blog run by the Lieber Institute for Law & Warfare at the United States Military Academy West Point.
As Russia's strikes on the power infrastructure have intensified, it seems increasingly unlikely that its armed forces can name a "definite" military benefit for each attack." routers
"As the language of Article 147 suggests, the destruction of power infrastructure is not unequivocally prohibited under international law. To be classified as war crimes, such attacks must not have been justified by military necessity and must have been carried out in an “unlawful” and “wanton” way. The International Committee of the Red Cross has previously noted that installations producing power primarily for military consumption are a legitimate military target. The United States Department of Defense’s Law of War Manual goes even further and states that electrical power stations are generally recognized to be important enough to a state’s military functions to qualify them as military targets during an armed conflict. Russia’s Ambassador has emphasized this point in the current armed conflict by explicitly claiming, “To weaken and destroy the military potential of our opponents, we are conducting strikes with precision weapons against energy and other infrastructure.”
making up new rules to call something a warcrime is not very good faith.
I am well aware the united nations has claimed war crimes and they are right about some of them but it is very political as well. I bet every enemy was complaining about war crimes in every war against their enemy while it was actively going on. im sure russias doing it
Really full on projection mode ITT between the ends of the horseshoe. BGnight was correct in one of his critiques, he just didn't see how he suffers from the same flaw.
There hasn't been a single example of when USA acted like Russia did in this war. They are not at all comparable. Even if they did, it's whataboutism to bring it up in here. That's a fact.
Have you never watched a war movie? pretty normal to see an accurate depiction of Americans gunning down surrendering Germans. They had pretty bad blood against each other compared to vlad fighting for russia and vlad fighting for Ukraine.
I had to use a movie as an example but its a way better depiction of real war that whatever fantasy you have in your head. What really matters is those renegade solders are prosecuted but we can't know if that is being done with the fog of war.
If you follow this war and you do not encounter anything about Russian war crimes, then you are following propaganda. It's really as simple as that.
I'm not saying that the war crimes are based on who started the war... although yes this is an illegal war since it was unprovoked.
" attacking civilian infrastructure is not a war crime"...... yeah... it is.
Here is the full quote from the "router's" article:
Power infrastructure has long been considered a valid military objective as long as it supports an enemy army's activities, even if the system also supports the civilian population, writes military law expert Michael Schmitt in the Articles of War blog run by the Lieber Institute for Law & Warfare at the United States Military Academy West Point.
As Russia's strikes on the power infrastructure have intensified, it seems increasingly unlikely that its armed forces can name a "definite" military benefit for each attack.
"Simply put, Russian forces are almost certainly striking many targets that do not qualify as military objectives," Schmitt argues.
It is saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to sell.
Here's the rest of the article:
Nigel Povoas, lead prosecutor for a team of international experts assisting Kyiv war crimes investigators, told Reuters that Russian attacks in the past two months have "focused on eliminating infrastructure crucial to the means of civilian survival such as heat, water, power and medical facilities".
Both Schmitt and Povoas say the scale and the intensity of the attacks can additionally amount to them being considered as "acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population".
This is forbidden under international humanitarian law and was confirmed as a war crime by rulings of the U.N. tribunal for the former Yugoslavia relating to the siege of Sarajevo.
The article explains how reality is the exact opposite of what you're trying to say it is. What you're doing is "not very good faith". Read the entire article instead of cherry picking some things. The article very accurately explains that some targets are both civilian and military targets, however Russia is deliberately targeting the civilian ones in order to cause terror and hurt civilians. This is a war crime. Even last year two commanders were charged with this:
And this year Russia's ex head of Defense and chief of staff are being charged for these things:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c988qj...
As far as your appeal to movies about what happened in the 1940s being closer to fact than actual footage: that's just lunacy man. I don't even know where to start. Watch 20 Days in Mariupol. Watch the NYT video on Bucha, it's free:
Read through the wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes...
Listen to Russians publicly admitting to war crimes:
Read the WHO's report on Russia intentionally targeting hospitals and aid workers:
https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/30-...
Watch Russia doing it:
learn about why it's an intentional policy:
Broken YouTube Link
Look at the victims of torture:
Watch some of the many videos of Russians executing POWs:
Spoiler
If you're not seeing any of these, it's because however you're getting information is formatted not to. This is extremely well documented and Russia is committing an outrageous amount of war crimes. You are correct that some Ukrainians have committed war crimes, and that war crimes likely occurred on all sides in all wars, but what is happening here is not the same. Russia is intentionally, and on a mass scale, committing war crimes.
This is the real world, the fantasy world is the one you're trying to sell for whatever reason.
