The costs of trans visibility

This is truly sad.

What a perfect example of the necessity of California's law. When you have a deeply transphobic parent like Elon Musk who is going to claim their child is "dead, killed by the woke mind virus" if they come out to them, then it should be UP TO THE CHILD whether they want to take that risk.

Dude has so many children he can't keep track of them, and I'm sure he can't see any of them often with all the other BS he spends his time doing. He probably just found out about this after signing a paper without looking at it years ago.

i think you should read back your argument, you are agreeing with me

the cause for the suicide rate not changing is immaterial for the purpose of understanding whether or not transitioning is a panacea to prevent it

ps Colin Rugg is a hard core right wing mouth piece so ps if they are edited differently its because Colin Rugg and Autistic Capital are both pathological liars who regularly make **** up to get their follower base pissed off, ps.

"Social Contagion" is a made up thing so morons like you have a lie to spew in the face of real studies and statistics.

No, statistics don't show that trans teens are more likely to grow out of it. You are just making up a bunch of stuff and providing zero sources to back up your claims.

I have no clue why I even justified your post with a response. You have zero knowledge or insights into this subject and you constantly spew BS.

BTW, in that first tweet, where is the son of Elon Musk? I guess the blatant transphobe having a trans child doesn't exactly fit in that narrative does it.

Transitioning has never been a panacea to prevent it lol, is anyone actually arguing that? I'm certainly not. I guess maybe some of the dumber TRAs might be

The actual argument is whether or not it has a significant enough degree of efficacy in mitigating gender dysphoria to warrant it being a widely available option for gender dysphoric people to pursue. And I don't think we necessarily know the answer to that, but imo we certainly can't reasonably draw the conclusion that it isn't effective at all at this point

that's precisely what is argued and the entire purpose for the "urgency" to transition children now instead of letting them make a more informed decision as an adult is because it's argued that doing so is "saving lives"

the only reason why before/after transition suicide rates are discussed is in that light

watch out though, half the thread is now going to start insulting you now calling you a hateful bigot and transphobe

I mean, imo allowing kids to express significant gender nonconformity and even potentially explore transition very much has the potential to do something approaching "saving lives." Seems pretty evident to me that a lack of trauma and shame regarding significant gender nonconformity during the formative years is likely to be correlated with much more positive mental health outcomes. My whole point was that this is undoubtedly going to be extremely relevant if we're trying to make sense of trans suicide rates (and esp with regard to males), though I think there are obviously many more potential factors at play

Granted I'm now in my 30s (and this is anecdotal), but I don't think I've talked to a transfem under the age of 25 who didn't have significant trauma surrounding their femininity stemming from their upbringing (whether religious or not). Makes me wonder if more transfems wouldn't be explicitly identifying as women if so many of them hadn't internalized from an early age that you have to be a woman to be "allowed" to be significantly feminine

But I don't see how it's not pretty stupid to suggest that we should just entirely stop allowing kids to potentially pursue both social and medical transition, but I also believe that a rather significant degree of caution should be exercised if we're talking about any potential medicalization of minors. The prevalence of greedy sociopaths in medicine certainly makes that more difficult though

agree with all of that

Bro, put down the bong, sleep it off, and read this again tomorrow

Definitions and categories are the root and precisely the issue not some trivial language game

How do you get male convicts serving and raping in womens prisons without a new made up definition and gender ideology?

Ok so who belongs in a womens prison? Why don't we reference our local genius ukemaster who definitely didn't repeatedly duck the question before barfing this gem on us

How do you get men ruining womens sports, scholorships, etc?

Is Liah Thomas a woman?

by hole in wan P

So is the 6'4 womens swimming champ with a penis

Lets check back with our favorite genius

How do you get adults with penises in little girls change rooms?

Excuse me sir, you've got your penis flopping around little girls here in the change room. This is a womens change room. You have to leave if you're not a woman.

Lets roll the uke genius "definition" of a woman back out. If its hasn't become painfully obvious how stupid this is yet, wear a helmet

I'm the only one even attempting to reference scientific research vs made up ideology. The ideology is collapsing in the face of actual research

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...

Also I'm pretty certain Musks child is being raised by his mother in another state

This was a really bad post even for your standards. It's like you're becoming unglued here. Settle down?

Your stance is that transism isn't even real and is just a mental disorder and you just tried to argue that modern Democrats are akin to the Khmer Rouge so its worth pointing out some distinct issues with the way you present your opinions that lead people to note how awful they are and it has nothing to do with scientific studies being inadequate on the subject, which (as far as I know) literally everyone in this thread agrees with except the people who want to ban any and all medical care for Trans children.

I honestly don't even think you understand your comprehensive view on the subject and just kind of troll with whatever is pertinent at the moment

I used to post a bunch of studies and stuck to specifically the statistics and that got us nowhere so there really isn't a point in putting in a bunch of effort when it just gets ignored.

Let me help, Social Contagion is entirely made up by right wingers as a means of propaganda against Trans people. They did the same thing for Gay people until it was entirely clear that wasn't going to work. You can search through all my posts and find the historical facts that back up my claim. I'm certainly not going to do it again.

That was 4 or 5 months ago, yet everyone still talks about social contagion like its a thing with merit, including you. What waste of time.

I think it's pretty unfair to flippantly refer to it as an "oppression story" when most trans-identifying people have traditionally been treated poorly, discriminated against, or ostracized simply because they very markedly do not conform to gender roles. Not to say that poor treatment from others completely explains everything wrt to suicide rates, but imo it pretty clearly has quite some potential to be a sizeable piece of the puzzle

I don't explicitly identify as transgender myself, but I'm a pretty markedly gender nonconforming male. I have super long hair, wear makeup, often wear women's clothing, and am kind of effeminate in my mannerisms. I long ago lost count of not only how many people have been personally offended that I'm not ashamed of looking or behaving in a feminine manner, but how many have tried to actually make their offense my problem, and I live in a major city in a blue state. I can't even imagine how much worse it would be in some of these red state areas. Despite all of the kindness and support I get from some people, the hostility I get from others has definitely negatively affected my mental health, and often significantly after the worst encounters. And I can only imagine it would've been harder to deal with if I didn't have some family and friends for support. And I've never even really experienced discrimination in employment, healthcare, or housing, because I consciously make an effort to be more "masculine presenting" when it comes to something where the stakes are high for me personally. Any of those things could've become much more difficult for me if I had been on estrogen for several years and didn't really have the option to do so

I definitely think there's more going on with the suicide attempt rates that isn't explained by social ostracization or discrimination, but I definitely am pretty fed up with people acting like it has no relevance, because I've lived it firsthand and know many who have as well

You can find my post with the proof I claim. Its there.

Until then you are the one making wild claims with no proof. I guess we are at an impasse

You can put in the work to confirm what I already know, that you are wrong, or you can continue to claim I'm ridiculous.

Either way I know I'm right and will continue on with my life.

I'm sorry to hear that, all the more so because I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of people who have gone, or will go, through the same thing.

And this is the problem with the current anti-trans rhetoric people are buying into. This is a complicated issue, and simplifying everything down to talking points and passing broad legislation isn't helping anyone. Taking a ham-handed approach with over-reaching policies and laws is causing far more harm than good IMO. And a significant part of that is indirect, as the homophobes and political opportunists have been emboldened to come out from under the rocks they'd been hiding under for the preceding decade or two.

i have never said that, i think you're getting a little worked up here and just firing from the hip with emotions

i don't think transwoman should be allowed to compete in sports as women
i don't think children should undergo transition
i worry about the cobra effect of things like prisons, bathrooms, etc because it'll be taken advantage of by bad actors
i think it's repugnant for the government to try to replace parents based on a non-zero chance the parents could be bad parents (yes i understand how 3 and 4 are in conflict, but a parental role supercedes everything imo)

that's really it, to just say i don't think trans is real is both lazy and inaccurate

i also said nothing of this sort either

jfc man you're so worked up you're just making stuff up now

put down the bottle, review your "evidence" tomorrow when sober, and then you can apologize for this insane and unfounded slander

someone was talking about the extreme left and extreme right and i made post about everything from khmer rouge to nazis - nowhere did i make any comparison to either about modern democrats and it's just ridiculous that you'd make that imaginary connection if you were sober right now

A hypothetical:

John is at a social event which makes him feel ashamed because he is gender non-conforming. A mysterious man walks up to John, puts a gun in John’s hand, then moves John’s hand so the gun is pointing at John’s head. Then, the man berates John, repeatedly calls him worthless, and demands he pull the trigger. Who is the villain in this story - society or the mysterious man?

Another:

John is at a social event which makes him feel ashamed because he is gender non-conforming. In this shame, John soon finds himself holding a gun to his head with a voice berating him and telling him to pull the trigger. Fortunately, John escapes the situation. Upon reflection, John concludes society victimized him into almost taking his own life.

These two are the exact same event. The key difference in properly assessing the situation is awareness of the mysterious man. It’s clear the mysterious man does not have John’s best interests in mind, but it’s this same man who forces John to believe that gender transition is the solution to his problems. Further, this man has convinced much of society of the same.

Meanwhile, as someone who is intimately aware of the mysterious man and how he operates, I’m over here with my hands on my head saying, “No, what are we doing!”

Thanks Bobo, appreciate the kind words

And I completely agree, really wish more people could see it like this

"Hypothetical" is really doing a lot of heavy lifting here bud. I'm honestly not even 100% sure that this isn't some kind of level, but I'm just gonna assume sincerity here because I've seen people earnestly say much more ludicrous things than this

You think people like me want to kill ourselves because we feel shame at social events? lol. If anyone is "out" as gender nonconforming, then not only are they probably only going to social events where that kind of thing is accepted, their own feelings of shame aren't usually an issue anymore. The issue then becomes other people taking offense at them no longer having that shame

Quite frankly, you either have to be kind of dumb or malicious (or both) to try to completely handwave away the significantly detrimental effects of homophobic and transphobic bigotry just because TRAs are probably in some way contributing to worse mental health outcomes of the trans population in their own right (at least I assume your "mysterious man" is supposed to be the TRAs? lol)

TRAs might be the ones who will be more likely to push other gender dysphoric people to explore transition even when it might not be the best option for them, sure, but they weren't the ones calling me worthless or telling me to go kill myself because I don't explicitly identify as trans or want to fully transition. The only people who've told me I'm worthless and to go kill myself have been the innumerable homophobes and transphobes I've encountered throughout my life

This is a good example of how the "what is a woman?" faux-question of yours is such a silly red herring. That is, the debate isn't about some linguistic or philosophical definition. You're going to use the emotive "penis flopping around little girls" type just-asking-questions style as you've done here regardless of what I or anyone else answers.

No, TRA are not the mysterious man.

i was lost too, for a while i thought you were saying if you believe in god then god is tranphobic and if you don't then society is

It’s important to realize that suicidal thoughts are not part of the mechanical, evolutionary process. How can they be? They are in direct opposition to survival.

If suicidal thoughts are not derived from a mechanical, bio / neuro process, then how are they derived? From where are they derived? From whom?

If suicidal thoughts are not part of the Darwinian story, and I’m experiencing those thoughts, then what story am I in?

This is basically what I have been saying as well all along. If society didn't try to put people into gender boxes, and children were allowed to do whatever behaviors they gravitate towards, I think extremely few people would be so uncomfortable with their biological sex that they wanted to change.

I have never been high or drunk, as I have said several times in these forums, so I'm not going to have different opinions tomorrow, and I have suggested all of these previously.

I gave my solutions to each of your quandaries, none of which you addressed.

Summary / clarifications:

* No prison for violent criminals, only execution. Solitary confinement while awaiting judgement / execution (both of which should be speedy).

* No group changing rooms or restrooms, only individual rooms.

* No athletic scholarships for anyone, they're stupid.

* No concerns about women's sports, society is better off without any competitive sports anyway, and professional leagues can do WTH they want.