The costs of trans visibility

Isn't it a different disorder? The same one Caster Semanya had? Seems kinda ****ed up to insist she is a man when she's apparently not.

I'd be the first to criticize this person was she born a man and now competing as a woman, but I refuse to bend the facts just to hate on her. That's essentially what people like Coordi do.

has the testosterone and the genes of a man -> biological man wrt sport advantage.

as I wrote, having a vagina would instead qualify for women prisok, women locker rooms, women bathrooms.

because it's about a pragmatic assessment of WHY we separate the sexes in various cases in our societies. it's not a "pointless tradition".

it's a conscious decision with rationales.

you don't want women inmates to get pregnant. you want women to undress among themselves because it's shameful for most of them to undress with someone with a dick around.

but we segregate in competitive sports because otherwise women can't win

gangsta man linked to the most plausible disorder (a man who didn't properly develop male genitalia)

I can't see how anyone intelligent would define sex strictly by chromosomes, and it would seem this boxer helps demonstrate why.

she wasn't born female. she (?) was born male with a very rare disorder that didn't allow for the development of male genitalia.

ironically it's one of the very few cases when the "sex assigned at birth" was indeed wrong.

i never wrote she cheated. I wrote she is a man for the purpose of having the advantage in sports of going through male puberty.

the theory goes that what matters for her to be a woman is self identification. That we contest and will contest forever

I make it sound like she won a single event in a sport where domination looks like this:

So I'm simply challenging the posit that the only way this person could possibly win a single event is because of advantages from them being born a man despite the fact that it took 4 years of elite training (as a woman) to finally win a single event.

by Luciom P

there are plenty of trans activists organizations which claim that going through male puberty doesn't give any intrinsic advantage.

this is A4TE (the biggest trans activists organization in the USA afaik) official position on the topic

https://transequality.org/issues/sports

so please don't play the game of trying to claim this complete denial of objective truth isn't THEIR SHARED POSITION and what they push at all levels

I'd need to see what the scientific research they're linking to (it appears to be a broken link but the entire website it's hosted on doesn't work for me so not sure if it's something on my end) is because I think there is an important distinction about actually going through male puberty vs taking puberty blockers/transitioning without ever actually going through male puberty - I still think there is probably some amount of advantage but it's a much more defensible position if it's referring to the latter.

I will say that I think if they are genuinely claiming no scientific research shows no advantage for trans women who went through male puberty then again I think it's a very counterproductive thing to be claiming. It is however a piece that is specifically talking about youth sports, which is very different from the conversation around elite level sports, and I agree with basically everything said in it apart from the one sentence about there being no advantage.

Again, I very distinctly remember Caster Semanya going through similar who had a vagina but no uterus.

technically it's about which gametes you produce (or could produce, if without disorders, given your genetic makeup).

why would anyone intelligent define sex in a strict way for a species that is sexually dimorphic?

You state this like it's a known fact.

I confused you and I apologise for that. I was replying to a post pointing out that in his physique Phelps has an abnormally large advantage over other swimmers , but somehow we accept this and even celebrate its outcomes. Sport is an accumulation of advantages (plus work, training, chance etc), many of which are biological.

Great, I didn't say you did. The only paragraph directly addressing what you said was the first one.

Oh, **** off with this nonsense. That's not all that matters here. She was born with a vagina, still has a vagina, and identifies as a woman. That should be enough for anyone to call her a woman, and anyone who refuses to do so, like JK, is just being a complete and utter *******. And people who call her a woman are not using "gender theory" to do so, they're doing "what most human beings that ever existed before you were born, and normal people in the present, think".

Is there a legitimate argument to be made that there could be some high level sport rules around very extreme cases with regard to testosterone? Sure. But until those exist, she doesn't deserve this social media abuse.

If swimming had the types of divisions that would separate him out (think wrestling) then competing in the wrong division would not be accepted. I reject your premise.

We're debating extremely rare cases here, the only other one I can think of is Caster Semanya but I'm still not convinced this is a man. I'll admit, I don't understand half the medical stuff I was reading when looking up DSD and DSD in athletes so there's that.

If swimming did have those divisions Phelps would still be a physical outlier and thrashing everyone else for years to universal acclaim, so your point is moot.

Khelif clearly met the division criteria for welterweight. If people want to argue for the inclusion of testosterone testing that's another matter.

I agree with this.

It's good to agree here for once.

When the best example of unfairness in the history of trans athletes is Lia Thomas you should consider that its counterproductive to make concessions

It's pretty damn easy to simultaneously hold the opinion that many youth sports would benefit with more inclusion while accepting clear advantages at elite levels. But the first sentence of that statement is straight fire breathing hatred that has fueled this into an epic clown that it was.

I say was because I think there has been some legitimate changes to high level sprots that haven't been discussed very much - namely because it doesn't add fuel to the fire that so many need for their pocketbooks

I'm not making concessions, I'm admitting what the objective evidence supports. There is a significant body of scientific research that supports the claim that going through male puberty provides a lasting advantage after transitioning, even if testosterone levels are subsequently reduced to "normal" female levels for several years. That is more than enough to argue the unfairness involved and using what is essentially anecdotal evidence of the rare cases than trans athletes have competed at elite levels without huge success is not a productive way of arguing against that and in fact comes across as science denial.

There isn't a significant body of scientific research on this subject.

But, if you want to go straight to the horses mouth

So this guy agrees with literally everything I've said relative to Lia winning 3 years into her transition

I understand that you are coming in mid stream and trying to catch up in real time but I've been deep in the trenches of this thread for the last 6 months so you are in over your head trying to thread police my stance

Maybe you haven't been around for long enough or simply don't remember but I spent multiple years contributing to the various iterations of trans threads and have spent a long time looking into advantages for trans women in sport specifically - I just haven't been around much for 18 months or so. While it has been a while since I looked into it in detail I am certain in saying that there are numerous peer-reviewed studies in respectable journals that find sustained advantages for trans women relative to cis women even after sustained lowered levels of testosterone. It is true that there are fewer studies on the exact impacts once you get beyond ~12 months but there is still plenty of evidence of advantages existing over longer periods, just fewer specifics about it. As well as specific muscle mass/direct strength analysis, which is what most studies focus on, there are also aspects of male puberty that convey potential advantages (mostly around bone development) for which there are simply no plausible mechanisms by which they could be reversed post-transition.

Edit: This is a good recent paper that was a response to the IOC's most recent policy on transgender issues. It has references to at least a dozen specific studies on scales ranging from 1 to 3 years that all show evidence of significant advantages remaining after sustained testosterone reduction:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full...

and likewise, if there were a division for people without phelps physique then it would be wrong for him to compete in that