Vice-President Kamala Harris

+1

Bernie's leftism focused on economic inequality. The progressive left of today is more subsumed with (their own) antisemitism, antiracism, trans ideology, and promoting de-industrialization. I think the Bernie of 8 years ago would be much less popular with the progressive left of today for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to the progressive left's antisemitism.

Is this very standard idea of "we dislike the actions of (x nation)'s government and military" really so unfathomable to you that you think it must be some type of code for "we dislike the ethnic identity of a majority of the citizens of x nation"?

The many thousands of Jewish people who are anti-Zionist must be self-hating Uncle Tom-style Jews, I guess.

"the whole line", lol

I still see a ton of people complaining about economic inequality, but it is indeed true that the problem of one of our primary allies executing a permanent campaign of murder and oppression on a captive populace has attracted our attention. GOT EM!

I am not talking about Israel. I am talking about hatred of JEWS. The thought that the anti-Jewish rhetoric we have been seeing lately is just righteous anger toward Israel is not just wrong, but absurdly so. It is so out in the open, that to deny it would be a Trump-level lie. Whether you are lying to us or to yourself, I leave that to you to figure out.

Again, if all you can do when confronted with the fact that there is hatred of Jews from the left is to wave it away with an "ISRAEL BAD", then you are giving yourself away. You may not even necessarily have animosity against Jews yourself, but you can't bear the thought that your side is on the wrong side of this issue and you therefore make flimsy excuses. After all, the left has no problem whatsoever pointing out and capitalizing on anti-semitism from the right, when the only real difference between the two sides professing their hatred of Jews is that one side used Tiki torches when they did it.

It used to be that the left was the side of inclusion; the side that was against discrimination. It seems these days that it is alright to discriminate, as long as it is against the right people, such as Jews, Asians, or other "white adjacent" minorities. It is a disappointing and worrisome road that we are traveling down.

There's certainly some level of antisemitism on the left. There's MORE of it on the right, but some on the left, sure. And that's bad.

However, most of what Zionists call "antisemitism on the left" is genuine criticism of the state of Israel and is not an example of antisemitism whatsoever. It's pretty simply and obviously true.

Despite that, the bad news remains that there's literally no possible combination of words anybody could type to dissuade people so existentially devoted to (x cause). So on and on we go, and nothing is ever learned.

At least we are making progress here. Maybe there is more from the right than the left. And I will concede that there are some people that wrongly call any criticism of Israel to be anti-Semitic. The fact still remains that there is rising antagonism toward Jews (not just Israel) from the left, and pretending it isn't there is not doing anything to help.

Has there been any independent study of this? I looked and I haven’t found any. The most recent thing I was able to find was this report:

https://cst.tau.ac.il/antisemitism-world...

They reference this study:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epub/10...

from before Oct 7 which found antisemitism to be more common among the right and moderates, than on the left. Or to put it another way, left wing politics was associated with the lowest incidence of antisemitism. Among young people, it’s also the right that has the highest levels.

You are suggesting that he shouldn't be so hard on young people who may well modify their opinions as they get older considering that he is asking people to not be that hard on him since he himself has modified his position. But there is an alternative possibility that eliminates this apparent hypocrisy and explains his attitude towards these 20-year-olds. Which is that deep down he never actually did change his opinion. And doesn't expect them to either.

Are you aware of the fact that hyper-radicals on the left dislike AOC now because she isn't antisemite enough?

Hypocrisy ?
Humans aren’t math equation.
Answers do changes .
Some might get better with age , gain wisdom, gain knowledge w.e and changed their mind afterwards based on those new « experiences ».
Doesn’t necessarily makes them hypocritical….

No lol, it's about a ton of people on the radical left (100x more than the neonazi) being on record in videos, chanting and so on in favour of intifada and asking for the elimination of Israel in the area (from river to the sea).

While criticizing bibi isn't antisemitism, being pro intifada or against the existence of Israel clearly is

Why is it you guys always point to random videos and anecdotes as if they were proof? I posted a report by Tel Aviv University and the ADL, hardly biased towards antisemitism, that says, unsurprisingly that it’s actually the Nazis that are the bigger antisemites.

Furthermore, how do you know these videos are representative of the left as a whole? What portion of the protestors are actually on the left and not just pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel? What portion chanted antisemitic messages?

A single nazi can easily be more antisemitic than a single "river to the sea" student, but the latter cohort is orders of magnitude bigger (and not confined to students ofc).

We have polls to know the magnitude

So, you’re claiming without proof that the study I posted did not use representative sampling?

I’d like to see these polls you mention. You forgot two more caveats. Not everyone who says that phrase should be considered on the left and some people who use that slogan mean it in the sense of freedom for Palestinians and not explicitly as a genocide of Jews. I think it’s a tainted and unhelpful slogan but I don’t believe everyone who says it wants to see a second holocaust.

They mean it as deporting all Jews away from the area at a very minimum.

They are against the existence of the state of Israel, you know Zionism in the actual basic sense? They are against that. And that's 100% unadulterated antisemitism.

Denying Jews a Jewish majority state is being anti Jews.

What's worse for Jews, which group should they fear more? 30 millions radical leftists who want to deny them a state, among them high level politicians, college administrators, clerks of federal judges and so on, or 100k fat uneducated tattooed whites who think Hitler was right and all Jews should be killed?

The study you posted is about minimal inconsequential antisemitism, like believing American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to america or that they have "too much power".

The actual consequential antisemitism, like an explicit desire to end the existence of the state of Israel, aren't tested for in that study.

Meanwhile we have poll about "was Israel justified to respond to 7 10" with radical leftist saying no in any way and as a majority justifying 7 10 itself.

Do you agree that saying "7 10 was justified" is infinitely more dangerous for jews, and more antisemitic, than saying "Jews in America have too much power"?

I appreciate your post, though I do disagree with your conclusion.

(1) While it is interesting that it was attempted, I don't see how a study like this can accurately weigh antisemitic attitudes. I just kind of skimmed through it, but what it seems to actually prove is that the right is more comfortable being overtly racist than the left, especially when asked of mostly university students. That does not necessarily mean that the left is devoid of racism. It can just mean that they recognize that it is unacceptable, so they were less likely to just come out and agree with overt anti-Jewish statements. Right wing university students, on the other hand, don't seem to have any problem filling out a survey that says that they are antagonistic against Jews.

(2) That study was done before 10/7, which was the match that lit the tinderbox, so to speak. There has been obvious rising anti-Semitism, since then.

(3) I agreed with Karl (for the first time ever) that there is likely more anti-Semitism on the right than on the left. My point was that there was recent rising anti-Semitism from the left. Just because the far left doesn't overtly yell out their hatred of Jews with the same frequency as the far right, that does not mean that it isn't a problem.

(4) There are some things that are just difficult to study in a scientific manner, and this is one of those things. Sometimes you do have to rely on your eyes and ears (anecdotal evidence) in order to make an assessment regarding whether the winds are changing. Far left protestors attacking American Jews may be anecdotal, but far right protestors shouting "Jews will not replace us" is also anecdotal. There comes a point that you see a rise in these anecdotal incidences and you have to conclude that either (a) all media outlets are working together in over reporting on these stories in order to push a narrative, or (b) there is a legitimate rise in anti-Semitism at the moment. I personally believe it is the latter.

There were a few points in the study that I think articulated very well the issue between right wing hatred of Jews and left wing hatred of Jews:

Bubbles, while I do disagree with your position, I still think you made a great post that attacked my positions in a meaningful way, as opposed to resorting to ad hominems or hand waving.

You’re still picking among the most indefensible interpretations of that phrase. I guess you think 100% of people who have explained their position as meaning freedom from oppression are lying? I don’t know what portion believe what but I think believing all are genocidal antisemites is ridiculous.

Maybe this is me being too charitable, and I’m open to being criticized for it but I think a good chunk of anti-zionist college kids aren’t actually thinking about what that could mean beyond colonialism is bad.

Believing in a one state solution is not objectively antisemitic.

I’d also curious where you’re getting this 30 million number from? And the top candidate of only one party is someone who said people who chanted, “the Jews will not replace us” were fine people.

That’s true that the study didn’t ask about the most extreme antisemitic views but it would be strange if the people who had the least antisemitic tendencies on lesser issues also had an insatiable lust for Jewish genocide. I imagine these kinds of questions were asked because people would be more likely to be honest about them. Feel free to post a link to this poll you mentioned. I’m certainly not denying that it says what you claim, but I’d like to see it rather than taking your word for it. And yes, I think apologizing for violence towards innocent people is worse.

An position that he had 20 years ago and changed is reasonable unlike Kamal who has flipped on a whole bunch of things in a matter of years

It might be the case that she never flipped though lozen and that she actually was a centrist (wrt economic policies), which was hypocritical back then when she pretended to be a radical.

This would be congruent with her days as AG, where she was very strict, even sadistic, when dealing with criminals.

Her instincts might be centrist on pragmatic stuff and very radical on cultural, superficial stuff (to throw a bone to the radical extremists they need to vote for them, but the GOP has the same need on the other side), pretty common among coastal dem elites actually.

I might be well wishing though

1. That’s a fair criticism. As I mentioned to Lucium, I would guess these questions were picked because they would be less likely to encourage lying, but that does not mean that some, especially on the left, wouldn’t still be cautious about appearing bigoted.

2. I’ve got mixed feelings about this one. For most on the left, the Israel-Palestine conflict isn’t a new issue so I wouldn’t think a recent flair up would blossom many new antisemites. Where a long-term left wing person falls on the issue in terms of antisemitism seems likely baked in.

That said, it’s of course possible that newly political college students are starting from a position of antisemitism and it’s also possible that existing, formerly hidden antisemites on the left feel emboldened to express themselves more now. I think the latter is less likely but that’s just from my anecdotal experience. In either case, the study is obviously not perfectly representative of the current atmosphere but I acknowledged that in the original post. I thought it was a useful starting point for considering the extent of the problem across political affiliation.

3.&4. I agree any amount is a problem. I have no doubt that it has risen. I can’t see how it could not have. My position isn’t that there’s no antisemitism on the left, or that it hasn’t risen. My position is the news isn’t a very good indicator as to the extent or among which populations it has risen. I actually disagree that you should trust your eyes and ears here. I don’t think it’s a media conspiracy but I do think it’s easy to be convinced that issues are greater than they are because all news outlets compete for the same attention on a viral subject.

Not everyone who would attend a demonstration against Israel is on the left. Not everyone saying a contentious slogan is an antisemite.There’s been an acceptance of the IHRA definition of antisemitism that is far too vague, regarding criticism of Israel. I think it’s made it harder to parse genuine antisemitism from politically unpopular or aggressive language. I’m really only opposed to the certainty with which posters here are ascribing blame to the left but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Same to you. I’m happy to be able to talk to someone on the other side of an issue in a respectable, productive way.

Sorry about that. I won’t continue it here.

Strongly agree with this. But I'd add that much of the blame for this goes to the protesters who insist on using slogans that they know have been used by others in very hateful ways. We're now living in a world where a small but growing number of people seem to use every opportunity to ramp up the rhetoric and divisiveness. One side intentionally uses charged language while the other interprets it in the most uncharitable way possible, and vice versa. And then they all get outraged when politicians and authorities try to respond in a no-win situation.

Edit to add: Oops, I guess this is quite a ways off topic, sorry.