How to Deal with Bullying

Oddly I had a bullying incident at Mohegan Sun over the weekend and my response is not what I expected.

The hand itself was unusual and the dealer made a subtle mistake early on. There were some folds then raise to 1,000 a call and then a player went all in for 4,000 then a player tried to minraise but put out 6,000 chips and it folded to me in the BB. I asked the dealer what the bet amounts were and the guy to my left pointed out to the dealer that the raise had to be 7,000. I asked the question not because I was going to play the hand but because I knew there was a problem. The guy put out the extra 1,000 chips to make it 7,000 and I folded. The original raiser then jammed and both players folded.

This is where it got interesting. The dealer started to pull chips into the pot so that there would be a main pot. But there was no side pot. The original raiser (later to become the bully) said to the dealer that she should give him 3,500 chips from the 7,000 chip bet. The dealer was looking at him and said and did nothing. I immediately said that the correct amount was 3,000 chips that should go the to the all in player. The Dealer did nothing. The original raiser then started screaming at me that I had no business talking when I wasn't in the hand. And here is where it gets different than what I said earlier in this thread. I immediately responded that I had every right to let the dealer know the correct amount of chips to give him because what he said was wrong. This wasn't the first time that somebody in a hand tried to manipulate the situation in order to get something they weren't entitled to. I have no idea if the original raiser was trying to cheat or just made a mistake but it doesn't matter to me. I will never let the wrong number of chips be given to any player regardless of who ends up getting less chips than they would have if I said nothing. Even if it costs me chips. So I immediately stood up for myself and told what is now the bully that I have every right to talk in the hand when a mistake is about to be made and I can help the Dealer do the right thing.

The bully then went off on me and called the Floor over and tried to get the Floor to give me a warning or a penalty for talking during a hand that I was no longer in. I have known this particular floor for about 17 years because he was a dealer at Foxwoods and we get along very well. So it was never going to end well for the bully. The bully said in front of the table that I had been misbehaving for a while and been talking a lot during hands that I wasn't in. He probably wasn't wrong. I was highly caffeinated and loopy from some medication that I had to take that day. But in truth I don't talk during a hand with anybody in between any active players. It does happen that when I stop talking the person I was talking to continues to talk between players . It is also possible that if I am talking to a player next to me that it could bother a player across the table though I try to keep my voice down.

The Floor pulled the bully aside and I have no idea what happened because the Floor did not pull me aside to talk with me. After the Floor left the bully (in the 7 seat) said in a loud voice across the table to me (in the 3 Seat) that I needed to shut up during a hand I was not in. And here is where it gets different from what I said earlier. I did not address my feelings (which if I reflect on it were really feeling challenged, embarrassed, bullied, put down, denigrated, belittled, etc.) but I immediately stood up for myself. I said that because he had asked the dealer for the wrong amount of chips I had every right to speak up and make sure it got handled properly. I said if it happened again I would do the same exact thing.

However I did also respond in a way that I mentioned earlier. First, I took accountability for having talked during previous hands and apologized and said I was highly caffeinated and loopy from drugs but I would try to do a better job. I also told the bully that in the future I would always speak up when a mistake was about to happen to help the dealer (this is true and happens a lot when there are side pots). I told him that specifically he had made a mistake when he asked for 3,500 chips and I was not going to let the dealer give him the wrong amount of chips. He did not respond. I also then congratulated him for doubling up (which was mathematically incorrect but he did just win a big pot of like over 10,000 chips). I did that because I was hoping that he could take in the good part of the hand and we could move on without continuing to fight. Which actually happened. We will never be friends, probably because he hates me for who i am, but I don't care about that. I was just hoping that the table could be fun again.

I did talk to the floor later to make sure he understood exactly what happened and why I had said what I did and the Floor had nothing to say to me about my behavior.

I also found out that this bully had emotionally exploded 5 or so times before at Mohegan Sun and had been penalized on ore more of those episodes (maybe banned for 24 hours or something) but that was from another player and not the floor...

Last I checked, players are allowed to talk among themselves during a hand as long as they're not speaking about the hand.

It's also in the rules somewhere that the players have an ethical responsibility to speak up if they notice a mistake being made.

I don't see anything wrong here except for another lunatic playing poker, but the only thing I may have done differently is not edge him on any more because some of these guys we play with are emotionally unstable and who knows what they'll do next as their anger increases. If I said it once I said it a thousands times some of these people are crazy and if they're carrying weapons on them, we're gonna be at a disadvantage.

mr rick, i think we have very different definitions of bullying

i would view it more as someone who specifically targets someone with pure goal of making that person miserable for purposes of entertainment/copium

with the instance you shared, it seems like he was just upset about you correctly intervening - ie had anyone pointed that out they would have gotten the same treatment

also, you already know this, but there's no rules against talking during a hand you're not in so long as you're not talking strategy - there's also the common courtesy to not talk to a player who's actively in a hand (ie you're talking about sports with guy on the button, when he enters the hand then you kind of pause the conversation until he folds or wins)

but again, i would never call that interaction you described above as bullying

Bullying's meaning has morphed into anyone being mean.

Not just strategy, no one in or out of the hand, should be saying anything that might influence. Even just a “wow” when an AAA flop comes or a AKAAK board or the 722 flop when you folded 72 and you just have to moan.

Now if heads up, in or out of the hand certainly matters who can say what. But in Rick case, it wasn’t even in a hand really. As noted, especially in tournaments, has a responsibility to ensure chips go to correct player.

Also agree this example is not what I would call bullying. Aggressive and wrong of course but not bullying. I withstood a minor physical assault playing in a cruise ship years ago. But the assailant was not bullying. Just a drunk ahole

You guys may all be right about it not being bullying. I did feel bullied though. It wasn't just about the correction I made. I thought he was trying to intimidate me to stop talking at the table.

I think what happened on the hand and my correction was the straw that broke the camel's back. I recognized him as someone I played with before and my guess is that my behavior at the table has always bothered him. But he had never come at me before. This time his explosion was aggressive but again it didn't continue after the floor came over (my guess is that the Floor warned him to let it go or else). I thought of it as bullying because he threatened me (that he would call the Floor over if I continued talking when I was not in a hand) and then when I continued talking he called the Floor over. But maybe it wasn't bullying it was just trying to control the current situation that had set him off.

Anyway, a few of you in this thread had mentioned standing up for yourself and ironically that is what I did without even thinking about it. But at least I wasn't trying to escalate things (which my anger has done when I feel threatened) so on the bright side I wasn't feeling panicked.

Why hasn't Vladamir Putin been arrested in Mongolia.

People only respect you when they fear you.

did they make him walk the plank?

Because Russia is Mongolia's single biggest trading partner in both directions?

Oh, wait, maybe it's because they don't fear him. Or they fear him. Or he doesn't fear them. I'm confused.

A lot of people had the chance to stick the knife in Putin.

Nobody did.

I actually don't play live poker because of what OP is talking about.

I think for a lot of people in live poker games the money really matters to them.

They are trying to get you to loosen up and to spew away your chips.

If you were walking by them on the street they wouldn't say a word to you.

In the end you are trying to take their money, so why should they be nice to you.

In a lot of sports, like tennis or golf, players are trying to beat their rivals and, thus, take money from them. That doesn't prevent most of them to be courteous and kind.

Any reason you didn't correct the issue of a player folding when he was already all-in?

How did they determine who won the main pot?

It isn't against the rules for a player not in the hand to talk during a hand as long as they don't talk about the board, what they folded, or such.

That said, it is courtesy to have some respect for the action going on. If it is a small, boring pot, no one cares about inane chatter. If it is a medium to big pot, keep the volume of the extra talk low. Maybe only talk to a neighbor. If it is a really big pot, shut up and let the players think in silence.

This mostly applies to tournaments, but it can apply to cash games when the pots get big.

Again, not a rule, just a courtesy. If a player is having to make a huge decision they shouldn't have to think over two players talking loudly accross the table about the latest Taylor Swift song or what the odds are in a game.

It went Seats 4, 5, and 6 fold then seat 7 raises to 1,000, Seat 8 calls 1,000, Seat 9 goes all in for 4,000, Seat 1 raises to 6,000, Seat 2 folds, Seat 3 (me) asks the bet sizes and the 6,000 chips bet is upgraded to 7,000 chips, I fold the BB in Seat 3, then Seat 7 original raiser jammed for about 21,000. Seat 8, the 1,000 caller folded, Seat 9 all-in guy was skipped because he is already all in so his hand is still live, Seat 1 guy who raised to 7,000 then folds. So its down to 2 players both all in at 4,000 chips now.

This is the point where Seat 7 asks for 3,500 chips and I step in and say it should be 3,000 chips.

The hand then played out and the Seat 9 all in guy was knocked out.

The dealer never broke up the 7,000 Seat 1 bet, which was one 5,000 chip and two 1,000 chips, to put 4,000 in the pot and give 3,000 to seat 7. In the end it didn't matter since Seat 7 won and was pushed the pot and all of the chips in front of the Seat 1 player anyway.

Sorry if my first post on this didn't describe it clearly...

Actually the opposite is true. Good players understand that a light-hearted table where players are having a good time, talking, joking, etc., is a very attractive environment for fish. Fish don’t want a “serious” table where nobody talks, people criticize them and such. They want to have fun. Good live players, in addition to playing a good strategic game, also have the ability to create this fun environment. Being mean to others is usually -EV (except where needling a player will make him tilt; good live players can do this also). Generally speaking, creating a positive, fun table environment is +EV.

This is such a great post. I’m always one of the loudest people at games, and I gamble enough that I don’t mind calling out nits and anti social people. You absolutely nailed the simple things introverts can do to be welcomed in games. It’s amazing what a smile and laugh can do to improve the vibe at the table. The OP should truly learn from this, but I would be willing to bet he won’t.

What will likely come out from all of this is that the people in the games were actually nicer than the majority for putting up with this guy for more than one session.

judging by the fact that he has not logged into 2p2 since making this post below, he won't learn anything from this and probably thinks we're all bullies as well

He could have logged in with another account though, or going unlogged.

Hi there!

You're right that was a good post, but complaining about the player style of other people is never appropriate.
You can also be social without being loud.

Hmm, ok well I guess you can enjoy(?) your games where everyone insults each other. That does not l improve the vibe of the table.

Dress all in black. Slash his tires

While I understand (and mostly agree) with your point, I will say Trash Talk Tuesdays at the old Hard Rock in Vegas (back when they had decent poker), were consistently some of the best games I ever played in. For some reason, most people play worse with testosterone flowing through their veins.