The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For context, this is a trans influencer who built a 10 million strong following on TikTok. She took a brand deal with budweiser to post an ad on an instagram, and the anti-trans right went absolutely ballistic, calling for a boycott, condemning the company, and to some perhaps unknowable degree it influenced that Budweiser sales dropped by a 1/4 and
. Dylan speaks more personally about the effect of the hatred on her.
What strikes me about this story is that it is just about visibility. This isn't inclusion in sports or gender-affirming care for minors, it was just that a trans person was visible. This wasn't even visibility in a TV commerical that a poor right-winger is forced to see, it was an ad on her own instagram page. We're all in our own social media algorithm influenced bubbles, but from my vantage point it really has seemed that in the last year or so things have just gotten worse for trans people and the backlash to even minor visibility is growing.
We need to do better.
I’m in an extremely progressive are and I rarely even encounter trans women except at political rallies/events that I go to. I don’t know if this is a joke or not but it doesn’t matter what people expect in your area anyway, it matters what the person’s orientation is and it would be wrong to withhold your natal sex for that reason.
Not a joke as Rick roll tried to mention to you guys as well.
Here in bologna Italy (very progressive area of a not so progressive country) deep in the night (from 2am on), in working days, (ie people who are hardcore to have fun, not casuals) there is hardly a club open without some trans women hanging around.
And of the decent, female passing quality that could momentarily be mistaken as biological women by a random guy who started drinking at 10pm and wants to have sex before going to sleep.
I don't think you can disregard expectations of the kind I describe tbh.
On the opposite side, think of a woman who wants to have sex only after marriage. That would be more extreme in many senses on the dating scene than a trans woman wrt expectations of partners.
I would still not REQUIRE her to go around saying that to potential dates before knowing them well tbh
I’m in an extremely progressive are and I rarely even encounter trans women except at political rallies/events that I go to. I don’t know if this is a joke or not but it doesn’t matter what people expect in your area anyway, it matters what the person’s orientation is and it would be wrong to withhold your natal sex for that reason.
a lot of people think they live in a progressive area but don't
if your neighborhood not have both a community vegetable garden and library box then you are not in a community where you'll find these people congregate
my sister owns a home in one of those places in boston (jamaica plain), her downstairs tenant is trans, when i was house/dog sitting for her she left a contact list for various neighborhood issues that could arise for each one of those contacts she included pronouns - a good third of them were in the "other" category
And of the decent, female passing quality that could momentarily be mistaken as biological women by a random guy who started drinking at 10pm and wants to have sex before going to sleep.
I don't think you can disregard expectations of the kind I describe tbh.
if you look at the wiki page of people who were murdered for being trans - this describes a good 80% of what happened leading up to the murders where some drunken stuff happened and then the killer finds out either during or after
to be clear, Veronica’s word play is much less offensive than originalganster’s insistence on always misgendering trans people and refuse to use the pronouns they use. Veronica may be silly in her word play, originalgangsfer is just being an ******* in his.
The person in question has XY chromosomes which makes him a male. The correct pronouns for a male are he/him/his.
I would say looks closer to like 30-40% but it does seem like a good amount yeah. I think they shouldn’t do that, but I also think that’s why it’s so important to disclose before sexual acts.
I would say looks closer to like 30-40% but it does seem like a good amount yeah. I think they shouldn’t do that, but I also think that’s why it’s so important to disclose before sexual acts.
yeah guilty of rhetoric there, surprised if it's less than 50% though, definitely didn't feel that way, still a massive number either way and a major reason why disclosure should be done early as well just to avoid what's clearly a very known issue
wildest part is the same people screaming to high heavens that trans are people at extreme rates and need protection are the same people who say "whether or not they have a dick is a private matter they don't need to disclose sexual partners" which is just bonkers
was a few months back when i last reviewed that list when we were talking about how the dating apps facilitate and encourage non-disclosure that i actually bothered to google search the ones on that list where it was kind of vague like "killed by x" and with those it was indeed quite often a surprised sexual partner as well
Misgendering is a strange thing for me I admit .
I don’t consider life like I consider a video games where u can be w.e you want but anyway .
Can a person change many times its gender throughout its life ?
That would be annoying wouldn’t it ?
One year you meet this person as X , then the year after its y then a decade later its x again and a further decade later it’s “they” ….
Misgendering is a strange thing for me I admit .
I don’t consider life like I consider a video games where u can be w.e you want but anyway .
Can a person change many times its gender throughout its life ?
That would be annoying wouldn’t it ?
One year you meet this person as X , then the year after its y then a decade later its x again and a further decade later it’s “they” ….
Why is that annoying? People change names from time to time, it’s at worst the mildest of inconveniences to make the mental shift. But for them it might be a really big deal, their trying to live their life as a new gender and in comparison the effort of addressing them with their new pronouns seems utterly trivial
In both my personal life, as well as online, I call it the way I see it. If a man wants to call himself “she” etc, he is free to do that but I am not obligated to play his little game. You cannot compel speech anymore to a you can restrict it.
Why is that annoying? People change names from time to time, it’s at worst the mildest of inconveniences to make the mental shift. But for them it might be a really big deal, their trying to live their life as a new gender and in comparison the effort of addressing them with their new pronouns seems utterly trivial
Not trivial at all. First of all, they’re not “their” pronouns. They don’t own them. Language has rules that govern the use of pronouns and those rules are pretty clear.
Why is that annoying? People change names from time to time, it’s at worst the mildest of inconveniences to make the mental shift. But for them it might be a really big deal, their trying to live their life as a new gender and in comparison the effort of addressing them with their new pronouns seems utterly trivial
Yet the fact that you can't understand that its OK to be offended . The best thing a trans person and you can do is ignore it when they are mis gendered . It seems were ok to offend Trump supporters, religious folks and many others . But OMG you get Demi Lavato's pronoun wrong even though she changes it often .
Not trivial at all. First of all, they’re not “their” pronouns. They don’t own them. Language has rules that govern the use of pronouns and those rules are pretty clear.
You should read about leismo. Not exactly clear at all when you have some Spanish speakers who use lo and some who use le and that that this can depend on the verb.
to be clear, Veronica’s word play is much less offensive than originalganster’s insistence on always misgendering trans people and refuse to use the pronouns they use. Veronica may be silly in her word play, originalgangsfer is just being an ******* in his.
Veronica's ''word play'' is word salad. You can claim it's a debate of language but you're wrong, as you have been on this topic since day 1. It's the classic trans activists being unable to define a woman and then also claim they are one and we should treat them as one. How can it be a debate of language when can't even define the words you use to describe yourself.
In my line of work I’ve encountered many “trans” people. I would not say a single one would be able to fool anyone that they are the gender they pretend to be.
I live in Canada. We have heaps of them here too. They're not fooling anyone is correct.
I wouldn't intentionally mis-gender someone who I worked with or had dinner with. Don't see the need for arguments over something so nonsensical. I can sit down with someone and participate in a lie. With that being said, I will not pretend they are what they think they are. If you want me to call Jim Jane and say ''she''. Sure we can do that. Jane is still a man, just a different name now.
You should read about leismo. Not exactly clear at all when you have some Spanish speakers who use lo and some who use le and that that this can depend on the verb.
We’re discussing English pronouns, not Spanish. Moreover, we’re talking about hard and fast rules, not a dialectical difference.
Veronica's ''word play'' is word salad. You can claim it's a debate of language but you're wrong, as you have been on this topic since day 1. It's the classic trans activists being unable to define a woman and then also claim they are one and we should treat them as one. How can it be a debate of language when can't even define the words you use to describe yourself.
Thanks for your support my brother from north of the border.
Originalgangster has been permanently banned for continuing to post anti-trans bigotry as a previously permanently banned poster who posted anti-trans bigotry on former accounts “transformer”, “transphobe”, and “Meisner”.
This thread is meant to be used to debate topics as they relate to the transgender community. It is NOT a catch-all thread to debate the existence of transgender people, their mental wellness, or their right to be treated with respect.
If these issues continue, this thread will be permanently closed.
Thank you. ♥
No, it isn’t. These are the rules for this forum.
Specific guidelines for Transgender Topics.
The following guidelines will be enforced on all threads and posts related to transgender topics. It is recognized that some people may have very strong beliefs concerning transgender persons that are diametrically opposed to these guidelines. Nonetheless, the following guidelines are in effect and posters who violate these guidelines will be subject to the same disciplinary procedures as other violators of forum rules and guidelines.
It is the policy of this forum that we support the major Medical Organizations positions that unequivocally state that transgender people are NOT mentally ill, and do not suffer from a mental disorder. The leading reference works for mental disorders, the DSM-5 of the American Psychiatric Association made that clear over 10 years ago, and maintained that position in the recent DSM-5-TR revision. The World Health Organization also moved gender incongruence out of the mental illness category in ICD-11. As more and more research is done, the idea that transgender persons have a mental disorder fades more and more into the past. Therefore, that is not a matter that will be put up for debate in the forum. It will be treated as a given that transgender people do not have any form of mental health disorder or illness.
It is our desire in this forum to provide a welcoming environment for all people to discuss various topics free from personal attacks. There few attacks more personal and harmful and disrespectful than to state that a person has a mental illness when they do not. Therefore any posts or discussions stating such will be deleted, and appropriate action, including banning from the site, will be taken against posters who fail to adhere to these guidelines.
Other prohibited posts include the use of slur terms such as tranny or transformers, among others to refer to either individual posters or transgender persons as a group. Deliberately misgendering transgender people who publicly present themselves as one gender is considered rude and hurtful by many in the transgender community and is strongly discouraged. However, absence certain context, just the act of using the opposite pronoun in the course of a discussion will not in itself result in deletion or other mod actions. However, statements like "fixed your post " while changing she to he, or bolding a pronoun to emphasize that rather than simply making an on topic post will be considered trolling and removed.
The overriding principle in play here is that transgender people exist, are not mentally ill, and have the right to present themselves publicly as they see fit. And as a matter of simple respect that we accord to anyone, there is no place for the deliberate use of other terms to disrespect their gender identity.
There will be some to whom these guidelines will be unacceptable and in conflict with their personal beliefs. And that's fine. There are many other places on the internet where like-minded people gather to share those beliefs with one another. If you can't post on transgender topics without including those beliefs, by all means leave here and go there.
There will be no transgender catch all thread to discuss transgender issues just as we have no catch all threads to discuss other LGBTQ groups. There will be no threads or posts about whether transgender people exist, have mental illness, or deserve to be treated with the same respect as others. Rather, if there are specific issues that affect politics or society, such as participation of transgender people in sports, or issues concerning proposed laws about bathroom use or education curriculum, those are appropriate. But only as the discussion pertains to the thread topic and doesn't devolve back into direct and indirect references to mental illness or if transgenderism is real, or gets filled with anti-transgender slurs.
Though these guidelines are straightforward, if you have any questions about whether a post of yours is within the guidelines I encourage you to check with a mod before posting it.
EVERYONE should read the above and become familiar with these guidelines, specifically the bolded paragraph.
This thread needs to stay on relevant topics as they relate to the transgender community, or it will be closed.
I wouldn't intentionally mis-gender someone who I worked with or had dinner with. Don't see the need for arguments over something so nonsensical. I can sit down with someone and participate in a lie. With that being said, I will not pretend they are what they think they are. If you want me to call Jim Jane and say ''she''. Sure we can do that. Jane is still a man, just a different name now.
Ok. In what way then do you refuse to "treat them as a woman"? I appreciate that for a trans woman in your life you would call them by her preferred name and use her preferred pronouns. Let's set aside for the moment some of the hot button topics form this thread (sports, healthcare, etc). In this dinner conversation, is there some way you intend to NOT treat them as a woman like any other woman at the table who you might not be sexually attracted to?
No, it isn’t. These are the rules for this forum.
EVERYONE should read the above and become familiar with these guidelines, specifically the bolded paragraph.
This thread needs to stay on relevant topics as they relate to the transgender community, or it will be closed.
There is some history here you may or may not be aware of. Through many moderation eras, there has been some iteration of a "trans thread" to discuss various issues related to trans people, just as there is a big catch all thread on all kinds of other things on the forum. I agree with you this shouldn't just be some free for all to **** on trans people. However, in specifically the browser era there was - as now - a pretty bad sequence of anti-trans posters regularly shitting on trans people. His solution at the time was to insist on not having ONE thread about trans issues, and so we had this weird period where there were dozens of trans thread that all got quickly closed if it ever shifted from say trans people in sports to trans health care or something. I don't know that anyone thought that was a particularly good idea, but he wrote those rules about a "catch all thread" and none of the many moderators since have bothered changing them, but in practice as soon as he left it went back to one big trans thread again.
It is also worth noting that as soon as the threat of the thread being closed was raised, a certain group within the forum deliberately agitated to try and act badly enough to have the thread closed.
My personal view is it is better to do as you are doing now, to ban the most egregious anti-trans trolling and still allow the thread or some version of the thread to exist since this is a big issue in society and not one that is going away.
Personally I don't mind debating these issues myself, but we just have to be aware that no trans person would ever touch this thread with a ten foot pole due to the rampant amount of anti-trans rhetoric in this thread. They might participate in a thread that was just about the specific issues that are controversial, like bathroom laws, sports, minor trans healthcare, etc. They're not going to come into a thread where people are like "YNBAW" every other post.
We actually had a trans person participate for a while! But yes, the endless anti-trans rhetoric was not exactly helpful.
