2024 ELECTION THREAD

I find this state of mind extremely consistent w/ conservatives as well, as if it makes even an ounce of sense.

It's about balance Luciom. You're always going to have some people in society, tribes, groups, that aren't productive. But pretending you owe your good fortunes to the billionaire gods is pretty ignorant. It's as if this amazing society that sits before you only could have happened w/ the good graces of billionaires.

To me that's like watching the shadows on the wall from people carrying objects on their heads w/ the fire behind them, and thinking the shadows are real.

I missed this gem:

So everyone is crying wolf, so they are lying. Did any of those guys attempt an actual coup? Your point is moot.

I don't know if this has been pointed out to you as well, so I won't assume, but American's version of the right, doesn't exist in Italy. You do realize that America is the most conservative of the first world countries, correct? What is considered liberal here is considered moderate in most 1st world countries?

And your comment about DEI hiring practices in the secret services is straight up misogynistic. You do realize you're being manipulated, right? This is exactly how it works. Locate the fears in other people, whether it be homophobic, misogynistic, racists, whatever... and use those fears and compound them w/ policy ideas that benefit the wealthy elite. This is the "connection issue", which they use to connect to bigger ideas that only benefit the few.

I do realize America is more to the right economically than most other first world countries which is why it is better measurably in creating wealth.

Socially no, but that's another topic

sklansky ldo

but he's never wrong about anything roc, so surely you and i are mistaken

If "the few" means 100m people out of 300m something then yes. That story still exists just with a different profession.

Being a good car mechanic in 1955 was harder than it is today to be a data analyst. Yoh are simply mistaking your grandfather profession as an easy one, which it never was, only a few could do it right, become financially independent with it and so on.

Be good at something that is valuable to others (which means, something that pays a lot, that what money means) and you can do the same today, as my dad did in the USA emigrating in 2005.

The rest doesn't deserve anything to begin with

bingo - being a car mechanic then was the equivalent of being a python coder today - of which we have countless stories of immigrants coming the us, finding work with google and making 300k a year whereas they would have been fortunate to make 30k a year doing the same thing back in bangalore

Let's just stick to the arguments. If you can't refute them, then just read along.

As far as deep state. I obviously wasn't talking about the very first time it was used, but more about who in America pushed this conspiracy? It was think tank driven and people like Bannon, Alex Jones, etc... pushed this conspiracy across right wing media outlets.

Why is it important to understand? Because the end goal of this deep state conspiracy is to overthrow the US government, because there's too many current bad actors in this deep state to save it via democracy. The only way to save America, ironically, is to destroy democracy itself. This isn't even a new conspiracy. America went through this exact same thing in 1940 in the America First movement. Same language, same "deep state", which was labeled as a Jewish cabal that pulled the strings of government. The Christian right teamed up w/ Neo nazi's to attempt a coup.

Who owns these think tanks that pushed these deep state conspiracies to their right wing media outlets? It's the who's who of the conservative billionaire class.

And this is why I said originally, billionaires don't like democracy (again not all of them), but definitely conservative billionaires do not. That's why they cooked up this scheme of the deep state.

DM

What? Ok, now that's good comedy. lol... sorry, I honestly can't stop laughing at this attempt at twisted logic.

I guess we need to define wealth, but most people would consider it as top ~5% of your economic ladder. But let's say it's top 10%... the top 10% in America hold about 70% of the total wealth in the country. To be in the top 10%, you'd need a net worth of $1.2 million or more.

Where I live, that's not very much.

Come on... that's such a disingenuous argument about auto mechanic's job. My grandfather was no genius, the point was it was a working class job, and he could buy a home, car and raise an entire family on one person's salary. He also had a pension, which they don't exist anymore.

There are PLENTY of similar working class jobs today, that require just as much "python level" coding as a car mechanics back then. I have to tell my uncle this one, because that's funny AH. He's owned a mechanic shop for over 30 years now. The cars today are infinitely more complicated than they were back then, to the point that most people take them to dealers.

But I don't want to digress... my point was, you can't raise a family on a single working class job anymore. That was common back then. Even grocery store clerks back then could raise a family on their wages. You going to tell me clerks back then didn't have scanners to scan food so it was that much more difficult?

lol... u guys are reaching... but I sincerely got a good laugh on this one so ty!

Deep state is two different things.

It's the "intelligence services are running a parallel government" (I think this started with the rumors about FBI first director, then the x files show glorified the topic) which is a conspiracy theory kind of approach.

And it's the "unelected civil servants have their own systematic agenda which they push against political will for their own benefit". Public employees will first and foremost create the need for more of them, that's how they exist, survive and thrive. They will always be in favor of more government involvement in everything, they ARE the involvement.

The latter exists, is true, is a cancer for society and need a huge amount of counterweight from elected politicians. Otherwise the drift is to ever growing government (see Europe) and the stagnation it inevitably causes.

I can't believe the stuff that Freakdaddy is saying... he's making too much sense!

😉

You guys.

If you saved even moderately in the last 30 years and put it all in the sp500 with 0 effort you would have a higher pension (that adds to social security) than the definite benefits pensions of your grandparents.

It's like the easiest game of all, all it needs is to save a bit and just trust the capitalists to do their own self interest, and vote accordingly.

Do you now see why being in favor of what helps the billionaires can help every one of us? Just out your ****ing money in the same stocks the billionaires own and win the game of life while they carry you.

The people with no savings or no strategic plan can die in the streets and we just need to get rid of them the cheapest way we can

You should google up on how the deep state became mainstream conspiracy theory by right-wingers in America. You may be surprised.

Do you agree that their reasoning is that democracy needs to be overthrown in order to save America? 43% of Americans currently believe in the deep state conspiracy.

?no it's about the example he gave which was eerily accurate with what actually happened

dude i have no idea why you're droning on about the deep state

roc and i agree on very little, we both agree you're dead wrong about your thesis and nobody else is jumping in to agree with you, the onus on you is absolutely to show your work because you're making a wild claim that's not backed up by reality and now you're just trying to shoehorn in a world where your idea is true when it's objectively not true

Totally... I'd 100% be there with you except...

... I care about the environment, poor people, and my fellow man in general. That seems like a pretty self-centered world view honestly. I'm sure you're an Ayn Rand fan as well, correct?

I don't disagree about stock vs pension. I've made this point in here fairly recently as you know. My primary point was that employeers aren't required to take care of their workers retirements anymore, not about which way to do that was best.

Well... I just put the reasoning in the post you quoted. What don't you understand?

Deep state were the people employed by the federal government which didn't faithfully execute all legal orders by the trump admin as it is their duty to do (or should be), when trump was president.

The anti democratic (anti- elected representatives will) pushback by the servants of the taxpayers and voters (federal employees) has to be eliminated forever. Every public employee has to obey all (legal) orders from elected representatives, without flinching, without ever trying to push for his own agenda which he shouldn't have as an unelected servant of the people.

And they should all be fire able at will by elected representatives, who are fire able at will every 2 (or more depending on the role) years by the sovereign entity: the people.

If you care about poor people use your money and find people who agree with you on who is poor and who needs help and help them. That's not something the state should be a part of at all.

Plenty of people will agree with you and you can do a lot of good, and quickly change course if something doesn't work (unlike the state, whose projects
Aren't subjected to constant competition of ideas and the possibility funding will dry up at any time if mistakes are made).

Making employers responsible for retirement doesn't allow people to change jobs frequently which is absolutely indispensable to match demand and supply of skills and the dynamics of an ever changing economy.

You're missing the point. The deep state is not redeemable, according to right-wingers in America. The only solution is to destroy all institutions, and in order to do that you must get rid of democracy, because democracy will only continue to vote to maintain itself.

Again... going back to the original point, and I should revise this slightly: Conservative billionaires do not want democracy in America.

Conservative billionaire think tanks came up w/ the deep state conspiracy. They spread it across their media infrastructure for 15+ years. Their solution to solving the deep state is to destroy democracy in America, and from the ashes build a new set of institutions.

I wonder who those institutions will benefit and beholden to?

Actually the proposed solution is to fire them.

And if your idea of democracy requires any agency that didn't exist in 1905... I don't know what to tell you but it was a democracy even before the DoE, the EPA, and so on existed and had any power.

Billionaires want a democracy that has limited scopes in it's powers (or a constitutional democracy which is forbidden to do a lot of stuff).

Like I do.

You want the dictatorship of the majority, 51% vote to sequester all wealth of the rich and they should be allowed to.

Billionaires are good at the game of life because they create conditions that don't benefit themselves alone, rather a sufficient amount of poorer, smart people who can benefit with them.

The whole idea in the game of life is being on the tail of the most successful people who shape society and benefit from it. That's true in all societies. In capitalism it's easier than in other societies if you are smart, you have a wider range of activities that will work and the constant numerical check of money to keep you going into the right direction.

No society will ever please the masses, they will always live in a perpetual state of insatisfaction, because what truly satisfies people is winning status games and only a few, definitionally, can at any given time.

Ya, I get it... make it somebody else's problem. Just so you don't have to deal w/ it.

What's your solution? Because you need some solution, if only for your own benefit, right?

That's nonsense about pensions. You're evading the point, and this is getting tiresome. The point is, pensions, stocks, a real 401k plan, whatever it is, employers 100% should play a key role in their workers retirements.

If you want to mandate matching contributions to 401k up to a cap I can be for it if you give something in exchange (like abolishing all DEI).

Btw employers already have to pay 6% of your gross salary toward your social security (with a cap).

What's my solution to the poors? Keeping an active society that benefits people who want to try be useful for others (=make money), that's it. If a poor person becomes a problem for others with violence we get rid of him swiftly and with no mercy, that's the solution.

Far cheaper than keeping him content for decades.