Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
the problem is that much of what you labeled Russian propaganda has turned out true.
-Russia is winning
-"the Counteroffensive" will fail
-Russia is stronger than the West
-USA will hang Ukraine out to dry
-Ukraine has manpower shortages
-the conscription program in Ukrain is brutal and unfair
I didnt think Russia would win. I didnt in a million years think that Russia was stronger in terms of weaponry and production. I didnt think Russia had well trained and motivated soldiers. but I am able to look at reality and change my opinions.
it wasnt particular difficult to predict that USA would not provide Ukraine what they needed to win this war. ofc, it took me like a year to realize it. Western indoctrination is very strong.
I had it as likely from the beginning.
After arguing with the likes of candybar the harder bit was not believing it was deliberate policy. I'm still very much in the 'we're pathetic' camp.
I didnt think Russia would win. I didnt in a million years think that Russia was stronger in terms of weaponry and production. I didnt think Russia had well trained and motivated soldiers. but I am able to look at reality and change my opinions.
You are right. But Putin gets out of bed in the morning and fights a war. So do Ukraine. To the west it's just 'on the agenda' sometimes
its funny that you defend Russian collateral damage but bring up the gaza collateral damage in every post in the other thread. anyway there's a reason I ignore that threat
I dont defend this. I make the comparison bc it shows the absolute hypocrisy of the West and how much more they value the lives of white people.
its funny that you defend Russian collateral damage but bring up the gaza collateral damage in every post in the other thread. anyway there's a reason I ignore that threat. I would use the same logic I downplay Russia' war crimes in this thread. Its war **** happens. Russia's actually worse in the sense they started this conflict. (current im not talking about everything)
His posts in the two threads are a lesson in hypocrisy.
It may be dangerous to be Iran's enemy, but to be Iran's friend is fatal.
Zelensky and Ukraine got a raw deal. another tragedy almost wholly the responsibility of the USA and the West.
Sinwar and Hamas got a raw deal. Another tragedy wholly the responsibility of Iran and the Axis of Resistance
nah, Qassem and whoever ends up leading Hamas got super rich, they good.
so long as hes able to get on that last plane out of Saigon. but the way hes been talking smack lately, they may just leave him for the Azov boys.
so long as the new leader of Hamas gets on that last plane to Iran, but the way they have been talking smack lately...
yeah, if whoever takes over Hamas is smart he'll get out before he gets got like Qassem did.
This makes 100x more sense than the originals. The only reason either thread can have anything close to a productive conversation is because posters don't sink to 27o and Victor's level of trolling, blatant propaganda, and contentless posts. If one were to post like them then they could make any thread unreadable the way they've made this one. But yeah obviously they need a place to be themselves...
yes anyone can clearly see victors just pushing his agenda and his mind wont be changed. That's why you just ignore it while trying to convince more open minded people. Don't go and complain to the bigger admins who wont let you ban him. What's the claim that hes a disinfo agent? Doubt it but even if he was you can't ban em all!
No, that's not the problem. It's not the problem at all.
-Russia is winning
-"the Counteroffensive" will fail
-Russia is stronger than the West
-USA will hang Ukraine out to dry
-Ukraine has manpower shortages
-the conscription program in Ukrain is brutal and unfair
I didnt think Russia would win. I didnt in a million years think that Russia was stronger in terms of weaponry and production. I didnt think Russia had well trained and motivated soldiers. but I am able to look at reality and change my opinions.
Interesting that you left off the constant nazi propaganda that you were posting here, which is the main complaint. Also Zelenskyy's corruption, Azov trying to kill Zelenskyy etc... the real propaganda.
Russia is not stronger than the West.
USA has not hung Ukraine out to dry... you don't understand what is going on. You have also been campaigning from the start for USA to leave Ukraine out to dry, so gtfo with that bs.
You're constantly equivocating over "Russia is winning"
Ukraine is not a slave army like you claim.
I have never argued that Ukraine doesn't have manpower shortages.
BTW it's always fascinating to see how much you soften your stances when trying to argue that they're not ridiculous.
yes anyone can clearly see victors just pushing his agenda and his mind wont be changed. That's why you just ignore it while trying to convince more open minded people. Don't go and complain to the bigger admins who wont let you ban him. What's the claim that hes a disinfo agent? Doubt it but even if he was you can't ban em all!
I could ban them all quite easily. There's very few people who are so lost that they find themselves regurgitating Kremlin propaganda. They should be banned, it's directly against the rules here. As you note, they are not here to discuss things in good faith; they are pushing their agenda.
tbh the same could be said about you. I don't think I have ever seen you budge on one single point in this entire thread. I have quite often admitted you were right . Thats just kinda how people debate
anyway I still like you more then victor dont ban me XD . im way more pro Ukraine ten you think I just like to take the harder side
none of that makes sense. Sinwar and the Gaza resistance are a national liberation movement. Zelensky is a comprador of the West.
its completely ahistorical and just plain racist to think that Hamas are in any way doing Iran's bidding. they are fighting for their freedom and land that was stolen decades ago.
It may be dangerous to be Iran's enemy, but to be Iran's friend is fatal.
once again you show no understanding of a quote. this was said bc of the history of the US to turn on its allies or to leave them in the lurch. Iran has not abandoned the Palestinian liberation movement.
None of that makes sense. Ukraine is a sovereign nation that just wants to live peacefully, Sinwar was just a tool of Iran.
It's completely ahistorical and just plain racist to think that Ukraine is in anyway doing USA's bidding (also genocidal Kremlin propaganda! "Little Russia" isn't capable of doing anything, they're either Russian or USA, can't be their own country!). They are fighting for their freedom and land that has been stolen.
Once again you show no understanding of a quote. This was said bc of the history (literally this last year) of Iran leaving their allies in a lurch. Iran has abandonded the Palestinians and Hezbollah. FFS they declared Hezbollah victorious as their entire leadership was wiped out and then said "good luck".
This is a murder btw.
Russia is just using old inaccurate munitions it not their fault some schools and civilians die nato started it
ISREAL IS COMMITING A GENOCIDE (ignores the massive provoked attack and hostages and doesn't know the definition of genocide)
No, that's not the problem. It's not the problem at all.
Interesting that you left off the constant nazi propaganda that you were posting here, which is the main complaint. Also Zelenskyy's corruption, Azov trying to kill Zelenskyy etc... the real propaganda.
Russia is not stronger than the West.
USA has not hung Ukraine out to dry... you don't understand what is going on. You have also been campaigning from the start for USA to leave Ukraine
I said the USA should have used its diplomatic power to avoid a war and to broker a peace agreement early in the war. this is obv off the table now so I dont really have any solutions. Russia is going to take what they want and it ends when Russia decides they have enough.
I cant possible address your gish gallop bad faith accusations. but yes I basically stand by all of that.
You're constantly equivocating over "Russia is winning"
this is in particular is bullshit. I have said many times that until the Texeira leaks I thought Russia would lose. in fact I was worried if they lost that nuclear war would happen! something that Biden admin assessed at 5050 according to Bob Woodward btw.
heres the thing, this is the Russia thread. not the Victor thread. you have been wrong over and over but you dont see me constantly attacking you over it. in fact I try to not to even address you which is often difficult considering the amount of misinformation that you spew.
never forget that it was Russian propaganda to predict this exact thing.
Russia is just using old inaccurate munitions it not their fault some schools and civilians die nato started it
ISREAL IS COMMITING A GENOCIDE (ignores the massive provoked attack and hostages and doesn't know the definition of genocide)
ignores the decades of occupation, mass murder, and 10s of thousands of actual real hostages that Israel holds, as opposed to the POWS that Hamas holds.
ignores the significantly fewer civilian deaths in Ukraine as well.
and just to be clear, thats not praising Russia on the civilian death toll. its showing how absolutely depraved the Israeli extermination campaign is.
I think people have a truly fundamental right to discuss if it's (according to their model of the world) in their country interest to help Ukraine and how much, and if it is in the country interest to not go allin against Putin, try a "neutral" stance or actually go closer to him.
Technical misinformation (like objectively false claims) is nasty but censorship efforts are worse so you just debunk the claims and/or debunk someone who systematically makes those claims and that's it.
What would be reasonable to censor is in case of *actual war* (ie in case your country is actually a belligerent) then yes no position or claim that can help the enemy in any way should be acceptable at all for the duration of the actual official war.
But if the USA and the EU decide to wage a proxy war like we did, which is reasonable, then we have to accept we don't have a right to censor our fellow citizens about that. If we send our own troops there then for as long as european or american blood is spilled, no european or american should be allowed to try to help the enemy in any way.
and just to be clear, thats not praising Russia on the civilian death toll. its showing how absolutely depraved the Israeli extermination campaign is.
the only real difference is that gaza has a population density of 15k people per square mile. its more in isreal best interest then Russia's to keep the civilian death toll low since one gets support from the west and the other does not...
USA did what you suggested and Russia invaded anyways. This is the irony of pointing to Mearsheimer as some Nostradamus: USA tried his route, it didn't work. The way to prevent war was to arm Ukraine. The way to prevent more war is to arm Ukraine; which are against.
It was never propaganda to predict that Russia would make gains, I predicted it over a year ago, what the hell are you talking about? Once again you looking at only your defensible points and ignoring the rest for example Ukrainians are Nazis, or nazi led, or banderites, or whatever bullshit it is you use now to evade the mods.
Zaluzhnyi is trying to assassinate Zelenskyy
Azov is trying to assassinate Zelenskyy (on this ****ing page)
Zelenskyy has pocketed millions from the aid (on this ****ing page between you and 27)
Russia is too strong for the West (on this page)
This war is wholly the responsibility of the West (on this page)
Ukraine kills their own POWs to send a message not to surrender
Ukraine's army consists of slaves
Madain was a nazi coup
Putin's done nothing to suggest he would invade again
Wagner didn't use cannon fodder
etc etc etc There are dozens and dozens of Kremlin propaganda points which have been debunked. It's nonstop with you. Just about every Kremlin talking point has been amplified by you at some point. You're focusing on one thing which has always been fine to debate and acting like that's the entirety of your posting. Incredibly dishonest, no one is going to believe that if they're actually read the threads.
this not the Victor thread. most of that which you attribute to me is a straight lie or just bad faith. you have an absolutely amazing way of twisting words.
Every single one is something you said.
the only real difference is that gaza has a population density of 15k people per square mile. its more in isreal best interest then Russia's to keep the civilian death toll low since one gets support from the west and the other does not...
The main difference is that ukrainian civilians in warzone left if they weren't pro russia lol. And came to the EU.
In Gaza that would look like everyone pro Hamas immediatly leaving.
well the main difference is people in Europe were willing to help the people in Ukraine leave the warzone. Country's in the middle east wont take in Gaza refugees which is big part of why they have been stuck in that hellhole for multiple conflicts now. Places like Egypt could have slowly taken them in even before the conflict
The other real difference (which has been discussed several times before making this a bad faith comparison) is that two very different numbers are being compared. Gaza was never fully controlled by Israel, Israel was mostly doing a bombing campaign. This means that the Ministry of Health has access to most of the dead. They also do not require a body to record a death anymore. They are able to record the vast majority of deaths.
Ukraine does require a body, and they immediately lost land, including some major cities where lots of death occurred like Mariupol. The 12k civilians killed in Ukraine figure is acknowledged by every major body as a severe undercount. Russia was not exactly willing to provide bodies for all of the civilians they murdered.
well the main difference is people in Europe were willing to help the people in Ukraine leave the warzone. Country's in the middle east wont take in Gaza refugees which is big part of why they have been stuck in that hellhole for multiple conflicts now. Places like Egypt could have slowly taken them in even before the conflict
Jordan has millions of people from "palestine"
The other real difference (which has been discussed several times before making this a bad faith comparison) is that two very different numbers are being compared. Gaza was never fully controlled by Israel, Israel was mostly doing a bombing campaign. This means that the Ministry of Health has access to most of the dead. They also do not require a body to record a death anymore. They are able to record the vast majority of deaths.
Ukraine doe
Even using Hamas body counts, civilian deaths were very low, because ofc we are not going to treat all deaths as civilians when most of them were Hamas collaborators or their immediate family.
If soldiers start to house their families with them during war they become fair targets, that's what hamas does. During war hamas members and supporters should never even stay close to their families, that's not how soldiers do on active duty
