Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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They did a survey in the south of Israel where it was the most anti-Bibi, pro Gazan bunch. In a blink now they're all basically "**** this". That's how betrayed they feel. Applications for guns at home went through the roof. Even the far left are supportive on the war against Hamas. Like I said, the country has never been this unified in my whole life. And this was at a time where a few months ago it was the most divided I'd seen it.
Hamas
I tend to doubt Hamas really expected anything like breaking Israeli spirit and it was more about cementing their position in Gaza. War is good for warmongers. It remains to be seen whether or not that was successful. It certainly doesn't look good for the Gazan Peace and Love Party right now.
If true, a great reason to stop the ethnically cleansing genocide.
Moreover, when the next Hitler comes through and posseses nuclear weapons, how easy would it be to take all the Jews out if they were gathered in one place?
That is the biggest reason for the Jewish people to resist the zionists' clearly failing dream.
All Israel does is continue to thrive. So I'm not sure what your metric is? It's a country that started as a little more than a pile of sand, ruins, some agriculture, ancient religious cities, bedouin communities, and sparse little communities. This is Tel Aviv now, it's just booming. Every 5 years the leap the country takes is incredible
Israeli GDP:
It has one of the most powerful armies in the region. It produces some of the biggest innovations in science, tech and healthcare. So again, by what metric is it failing? I hate Bibi, but all Israel did under him was boom. And it shows no signs of slowing down.
Anyone who went to Israel in the 90's and then went back for the first time now wouldn't recognize the country. I wish we had that speed of innovation here.
I tend to doubt Hamas really expected anything like breaking Israeli spirit and it was more about cementing their position in Gaza. War is good for warmongers. It remains to be seen whether or not that was successful. It certainly doesn't look good for the Gazan Peace and Love Party right now.
they tried a peaceful resolution many times. so did Mandela. if you think that asking these psychopaths nicely to allow Gazans to live freely will work then I dont think you are paying attention.
Multiple eyewitnesses report dozens of Gazans mowed down waiting for food truck.
truly despicable to stand with Israel right now.
He's essentially saying that nearly every male killed is Hamas. It's absurd.
And no PW, people don't hate the Jews. The Zionists really want you to believe that tho.
Yes they really do.
Yeah but posters here want to get rid of the only safe haven for jews. But they aren't antisemitic!
Do you actually believe this?
I dont think Jews are hated in the USA. a few fringe psychos is not a good representation.
White Christian people in America used to think Jews killed jesus. I don’t it’s changed. You ever see the borat video “throw the Jews down the well?”
Speaking antisemitism and murdering Jews, I watched Ordinary Men, The Forgotten Holocaust on Netflix last night.
I'm sure you saw me talking about the book with the same name, it's an extremely important thing that everyone should read. I had no idea there was a documentary covering the same subject matter, thanks for the heads up.
You might well *feel* safer, being comfortably in the majority, in the ancient homeland, and you might actually be safer from the risk of harassment, but probably not from the risk of death by terrorism, or from the constant security concerns which are a nagging fact of life round there.
And that will be the case up until Iran has nukes. When Iran has nukes, we can reopen this conversation.
Israel has a nuclear deterrent, so Iran cannot use nuclear weapons against Israel. It would amount to using them on itself. But we could maybe reopen the conversation when something like Oct 7 happens in Paris, London or New York. Which is improbable.
Till then, it's not close. You want to be where your protectors are. The Diaspora has very few.
Understandable, but it's also where your most determined and dangerous enemies are, with constant proximity and opportunity. And the 'protectors' failed badly on Oct 7, and may have made the country less secure by their actions in Gaza since then.
Yes they really do.
Do you actually believe this?
White Christian people in America used to think Jews killed jesus. I don’t it’s changed. You ever see the borat video “throw the Jews down the well?”
I saw a Jewish actor trick some people into saying something. its what he is known for.
and White Christians are massively in support of Israel right now.
Yea he tricked them. Or they are racist and they enjoy the KKK
'Many times' is hyperbole, but there were the Oslo Accords, and these were sunk mainly by the Israelis, with the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, the assassination of Rabin and above all the continual land-appropriation and settlement-building on the West Bank, bespeaking bad faith. There was also the Hamas suicide-bombing campaign in response to the massacre, because the Israeli and Palestinian warhawk factions keep each other in business, but it remains the case that the PLO was prepared to reach an agreement and right-wing Israelis, believing themselves the stronger and having territorial ambitions, didn't want such an agreement. (Rabin seemingly did, but look what happened to him, and Netanyahu has profited ever since from that murder.)
Victor I already easily debunked your truce thing. Don't be silly.
3 aspects:
1) Hamas can't maintain a 7 day truce let alone ten years
2) It was stated as a pause before resuming the exact same objectives. That isn't peace that's just a re-arm
3) Any good faith actor here wants actual peace and actual 2 state. Hamas doesn't want that. Sinwar said it himself. Don't make me repost his exact quote.
The starting point for peace is each side recognizing the other's right to exist. That's diametrically opposed to the Hamas ethos.
Victor I already easily debunked your truce thing. Don't be silly.
3 aspects:
1) Hamas can't maintain a 7 day truce let alone ten years
2) It was stated as a pause before resuming the exact same objectives. That isn't peace that's just a re-arm
3) Any good faith actor here wants actual peace and actual 2 state. Hamas doesn't want that. Sinwar said it himself. Don't make me repost his exact quote.
The starting point for peace is each side recogni
so nothing Hamas says or does will make you believe that there can be peace. think about why you think that way and what it results in. also understand that most people work backwards to justify something.
your first point is laughable considering Israel never stopped sniping people during the entire ceasefire.
Ordinary people who are not under attack or manipulated by fearmongers want peace. The Gazan border protests could have been an example of how peace could happen if something like that happened at the same time on both sides. Started by ordinary people the movement became large enough that Hamas was forced to accept it.
Yeah, that could have been an opportunity.
'Many times' is hyperbole, but there were the Oslo Accords, and these were sunk mainly by the Israelis, with the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, the assassination of Rabin and above all the continual land-appropriation and settlement-building on the West Bank, bespeaking bad faith. There was also the Hamas suicide-bombing campaign in response to the massacre, because the Israeli and Palestinian warhawk factions keep each other in business,
Clinton said: "What the hell is this? Why is she turning the mistakes we [ie, the US and Israel] made into the essence? The true story of Camp David was that for the first time in the history of the conflict the American president put on the table a proposal, based on UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, very close to the Palestinian demands, and Arafat refused even to accept it as a basis for negotiations, walked out of the room, and deliberately turned to terrorism."
Clinton was speaking of the two-week-long Camp David conference in July 2000 which he had organised and mediated and its failure, and the eruption at the end of September of the Palestinian intifada which has continued since. Halfway through the conference, apparently on July 18, Clinton had "slowly" - to avoid misunderstanding - read out to Arafat a document, endorsed in advance by Barak, outlining the main points of a future settlement. The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarised Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organisation by the international community of a massive aid programme to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.
Arafat said no. Enraged, Clinton banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe." A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day. The summit sputtered on for a few days more but to all intents and purposes it was over.
Today Barak portrays Arafat's behaviour at Camp David as a "performance" geared to exacting from the Israelis as many concessions as possible without ever seriously intending to reach a peace settlement or sign an "end to the conflict".
"He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own," he says. Barak shifts between charging Arafat with "lacking the character or will" to make a historic compromise (as did the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1977-79, when he made peace with Israel) to accusing him of secretly planning Israel's demise while he strings along a succession of Israeli and Western leaders and, on the way, hoodwinks "naive journalists".
You can talk about negotiations and who was in good or bad faith in some accords all day, but over the last 30 years Israel building walls and settlements in the WB (many just because of demand for cheaper housing) has been absolutely the opposite of any kind of good faith seeking of peace.
Ordinary people who are not under attack or manipulated by fearmongers want peace. The Gazan border protests could have been an example of how peace could happen if something like that happened at the same time on both sides. Started by ordinary people the movement became large enough that Hamas was forced to accept it.
Yeah, that could have been an opportunity.
I dont think you understand the mentality of the people in Israel right now. over 80% support the bombing or want more bombing. they dont want peace and they dont want the Palestinians to be free.
yes
You can talk able negotiations and who was in good or bad faith in some accords all day, but over the last 30 years Israel building walls and settlements in the WB (many just because of demand for cheaper housing) has been absolutely the opposite of any kind of good faith seeking of peace.
We've been over this.
The Israeli LEFT was in power for ages, and had as its main goal to solve this issue. This was the Rabin dream. They put together the best shot at it. The second Intifada was all it got them, and the Israeli left died in flames. And it died logically, the Israeli people felt completely taken advantage of. The goods they were sold were totally fraudulent as it relates to land for peace. THAT is what built the walls Micro. I know you know this.
So then you got the Israeli right. How has that worked out? Not too great.
And now that Hamas has killed, raped, tortured, and kidnapped their best allies on the Israeli side, how is it going to go now? Probably not too great.
Btw it's super weird being Jewish and speaking ill of a wall and fence that keeps suicide bombers out. Like fundamentally I don't understand the issue you have with that. You'd prefer the suicide bombs? Why?
You can talk able negotiations and who was in good or bad faith in some accords all day, but over the last 30 years Israel building walls and settlements in the WB (many just because of demand for cheaper housing) has been absolutely the opposite of any kind of good faith seeking of peace.
Sure right wing policies prefered the status quo. But the commentthat Palestinians have wanted peace abs Israelis haven't is bs
We've been over this.
The Israeli LEFT was in power for ages, and had as its main goal to solve this issue. This was the Rabin dream. They put together the best shot at it. The second Intifada was all it got them, and the Israeli left died in flames. And it died logically, the Israeli people felt completely taken advantage of. The goods they were sold were totally fraudulent as it relates to land for peace. THAT is what built the walls Micr
Well said
