Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Lol man coming rafiki point is very clear.
Palestinians have to suck it up and accept their losses and move on with their lives, like Jews did so many times in history.
Thaaaaank you.
The world is here, right now, ready to make this happen. There will never be a better moment than right now to turn Gaza into a sea-side resort town thriving with tourism if they want it. The half that leave the way my family left (for safety and density reasons) can have all kinds of abilities to come back later, it can be part of the deal. They could get profit share, jobs, free education, who knows what else if we set it up right.
Or they can Intifada and they can just keep struggling (even dying). For Sinwar, option B makes perfect sense, because the dying part isn't a price (that's a ticket to eternal paradise). He has no destiny fulfilled if they stop fighting, no great redemption for Islam if he does that. So his motivations are so totally removed from the civilian population, and it's crazy that people don't see it clearly. He doesn't fight for them, he uses them for the fight.
Get Hamas out, and the whole world needs to help Gaza the way the whole world helped in 1945. Different situations, but evidence it can be done.
My god you have to be trolling, you can't possibly be this simplistic and obtuse. Are you seriously telling me that's what you gleaned from Raf's post?
I mean who could ever guess, imply, or otherwise imagine that a user who goes by the screen name trolly mctrollson could indeed be trolling, at least sometimes?
Get Hamas out, and the whole world needs to help Gaza the way the whole world helped in 1945. Different situations, but evidence it can be done.
I have almost never seen a clearer case where international money would be justifiably spent to improve the lives of a population than reconstruction of Gaza under UN blue helmets to be honest.
Most countries would pay their share toward that outcome imho
its the occupation, and the presence of jews on "muslim land". ending the former doesn't fix the latter.
This is the disconnect in the thread, maybe the world. There are two sides.
One side (in this thread you know who you are) is like "occupation, settlements"
The OTHER side, the actual Hamas side, is "river to the sea, revenge for the shame on Islam, it will all be ours"
And you wonder if one side has even heard the other. Then the temp banned one will claim Hamas offers a 10 year truce that's a "wonderful deal", and we repeat 20 pages. I mean forget that these guys can't hold a 7 day truce, or have no intention of stopping the main goal. Or that there are dozens of decision makers and at any time any can disagree with the choice one guy made. It's a mess.
^^^If the PLO had achieved a state it would have pulled the rug out from under Hamas.
A big part of why PLO couldn’t achieve a state is Hamas did everything in its power to sabotage such an agreement.
I think what Israel is doing is absolutely over the line and should have stopped long ago but this statement just doesn't look to be true in the most charitable sense.
Maybe over a lifetime or so, anything is possible, but the current level of vitriol mixed with the conditioning to risk the lives of literally millions of their own people just to attack any and all doesn't seem to square with those tantrums fading away from being granted a
And this is why Palestine will not exist or a two state solution nor will you ever eliminate Hamas
Among other things, yes.
If Hamas will never allow any sort of actual peace, and the Palestinian people overwhelmingly support Hamas over other options (which every poll overwhelmingly indicates); then at some point we have to accept it is actually the Palestinian people who will never allow any sort of actual peace.
It is not like in some hypothetical where Israel kills Sinwar or eradicates 90% of Hamas's capabilities, the Palestinian people would say "Ok, now that they're gone lets give peace a chance." IF Israel and the rest of the world allows it, a new Iranian/Qatar/UNRWA supported terror group would just fill the vacuum, as this is what the people actually want.
That seems to be the main takeaway of US intervention in this part of the world over the last 30 years. Is that the people themselves are extremely tribal/parochial; and no matter how bad they are at the job (extremely bad in most cases), the people will always pick their own terrorists/freedom fighters over foreign influence.
It's the occupation that is driving the vitriol. That and continued incremental loss of land.
So you're saying that Hamas is just going about this in a really idiotic way with their actions and verbatim and digging deeper into their philosophy, peace could have been assured by ending the occupation? This seems like a little too much wishfull thinking here.
I get why Palestinians would hate Israel, and part of that is seeded in horseshit religion and precious holy land, but we still have to accept things for what they are.
So you're saying that Hamas is just going about this in a really idiotic way with their actions and verbatim and digging deeper into their philosophy, peace could have been assured by ending the occupation? This seems like a little too much wishfull thinking here.
I get why Palestinians would hate Israel, and part of that is seeded in horseshit religion and precious holy land, but we still have to accept things for what they are.
Ending the occupation and granting a state. A real state was never on the table at Oslo.
If Hamas will never allow any sort of actual peace, and the Palestinian people overwhelmingly support Hamas over other options (which every poll overwhelmingly indicates); then at some point we have to accept it is actually the Palestinian people who will never allow any sort of actual peace.
It is not like in some hypothetical where Israel kills Sinwar or eradicates 90% of Hamas's capabilities, the Palestinian people would say "Ok, now that
When you listen to (smart) people talk about deradicalization, it includes at the education level. It means Palestinian children learning Israel's story, and understanding that view point too. Without that like you say, it's just a repeat. Same thing with the Israelis having a better understanding of the Palestinian story (of course the difference being most Israelis are ok with the Palestinians having some form of state in this process).
It was definitely on the table but neither side really worked towards achieving it
Okay "on the table" was not the best choice of words. But I know Rabin's story -- he told the Knesset the point was to give something "less than a state" (IIRC) and Area C preempts a state. What's the PLO side of this -- how were they not working towards a state?
Sanders doesn't hate Israel and has often voted in favour of american help to Israel.
Sanders however hates the israelian right
I get why Palestinians would hate Israel, and part of that is seeded in horseshit religion and precious holy land...
It's mainly just 'land'. The Palestinians had been living there, like they always had, for over 1800 years after the Roman deportation of the Jews, long before the invention of Islam, and then in the 20th century they abruptly got told to get out, and occasionally massacred, by a bunch of aggressive and well-financed European settlers. The religious fetishisation of the land has rather more to do with Zionism (an ideology constructed by foreigners, from the Viennese Herzl to the Brooklynites currently camped on the West Bank) than with the Palestinians. On the Palestinian side, the religious element only comes in with the Israeli seizure of East Jerusalem (and, with it, the Dome of the Rock) in 1967 and Israel's subsequent and inflammatory refusal ever again to allow East Jerusalem to be the Palestinian capital, because Israel won't accept a Palestinian state and Israel's whole doctrine and ethos is, in Netanyahu's words, 'They must agree to be ruled by us.' (Clue: They won't.)
It's mainly just 'land'. The Palestinians had been living there, like they always had, for over 1800 years after the Roman deportation of the Jews, long before the invention of Islam, and then in the 20th century they abruptly got told to get out, and occasionally massacred, by a bunch of aggressive and well-financed European settlers. The religious fetishisation of the land has rather more to do with Zionism (an ideology constructed by for
Is not just land
Hamas last counter proposal wants jews to not be able to pray at the wailing wall any longer because the "temple mount is a holy muslim site"
