Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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im clearly laying out that israel has done much worse to Palestine , and I am using your own metrics
what is confusing?
israel uses illegal settlers to extend their presence in disputed areas.
isreal arms the settlers and they murder innocent Palestinians
israel doesnt prosecute their own terrorists
israel has 1000 palestinian hostages
isreal throws parties on land that was palestinian and then acts surprised when people in war zones get attacked
We were talking about Hamas's use of human shields. You went on to "explain" that the rave was also Israel using human shields (which is insane btw).
And now you've arrived at this word salad, mostly because you've been corrected on so many inaccuracies in your posts that you've probably run out of other viable options. Because you don't know the first thing about a country you've never set foot in. And the next Israeli you dialogue with might be your first.
For the bolded, tell me. Which part of Israel do you consider "was Palestinian"? I was under the impression that you considered that to be more or less all of Israel, no? If you consider all of Israel to be Palestinian, where would you like raves to take place exactly?
Supernova's location wound up being Re'im 2 days before the party happened (after they lost access to venue #1). Because like MOST raves, locations get funky and you end up where you end up.
Dude they gang raped a girl at Supernova before they killed her in front of witnesses. And you're like "don't throw your party for peace there".
That's who you are right now.
"if you throw your party for peace too close to Gaza, that gang rape death is on you!"
well ok then
We were talking about Hamas's use of human shields. You went on to "explain" that the rave was also Israel using human shields (which is insane btw).
And now you've arrived at this word salad, mostly because you've been corrected on so many inaccuracies in your posts that you've probably run out of other viable options. Because you don't know the first thing about a country you've never set foot in. And the next Israeli you dialogue with mi
lets check out the borders agreed to in 1967 or whatever
Which world governments have the IDF as a recognized terrorist organization? Just curious.
what does that have to do with anything? if a govt doesnt say youre a terrorist then you arent?
cmon man just tell the truth, israel is a much worse, much more deadly organization than hamas and israel literally has killed ten times the amount of civilians as hamas has
israel also has over ten times the amount of hostages hamas has
you can say that you think its ok for isreal to kill 40k civilians just because they are mad about losing 1200 during the course of their 60 year war
I had a great professor in college who was israeli and he was the first person I ever met who was anti IDF.
wait, simple question.
one side kills 3000 people
one side kills 30000 people
which side is the bad guy and which side is the good guy?
dont use any other information
Again you're just word salading.
67 borders? What does that have to do with Re'im and Nova?
We are talking about human shields. You made a very poor example of it, and you got fairly convincingly corrected. And now you're upset, and you're just posting numbers from the war. And it is a war btw, make no mistake. You seem to be confusing it with something else though.
Look, you're allowed to be upset about how many dead Gazans there are in this war (and history will call it a war). But you've completely lost the plot of any semblance of discussion we were having. Talk to me about human shields use, or don't. You can decide.
Again you're just word salading.
67 borders? What does that have to do with Re'im and Nova?
We are talking about human shields. You made a very poor example of it, and you got fairly convincingly corrected. And now you're upset, and you're just posting numbers from the war. And it is a war btw, make no mistake. You seem to be confusing it with something else though.
Look, you're allowed to be upset about how many dead Gazans there are in thi
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what does that have to do with Kibbutz Re'im and Supernova? I would just love to know.
We can get into the other elements of the "map" stuff in other parts of this discussion, which is basically what's been already done ad nauseam in this thread. We aren't "discovering" anything here.
This is why i put pointless on ignore
"Mostly ex military" means that because service is required in Israel nobody is a civilian and they deserve to be murdered at a music festival
Lol you keep quoting his nonsense and now my eyes are bleeding
1946 Palestine map includes jewish communities. They aren't allowed in Gaza or area a right
Bill haywood
I want to thank you for generally being civil in your discussions and actually trying to debate. We disagree on most all of this issue, but you seem like a genuine person who cares
1947 Un plan
Israel accepts
Arab world rejects, Palestinian people do not fight to have state, support arab nations in war to get all land
1949 armistice lines agreed upon .. temporary lines that will be settled
through wars and treaties. Jordan OCCUPIES west Bank. Egypt OCCUPES gaza
1950 jordan ANNEXES west Bank. Offers citizenship. Many accept citizenship
1967 jordan leaves west Bank and cedes it to Israel military. Jordan takes away citizenship of people that gave it to, does not allow them to move to jordan. Still claim the land will be there's again, not the Palestinians
1973 egypt attacks Israel on yom Kippur, Israel fights back, egypt leaves gaza and cedes to Israel military
1974 Palestinian cause now begins. Now they want a nation and want to pretend the past 25 years never happened
1978 Israel makes peace with egypt and jordan
1988 jordan finally renounces their claim to the west Bank
2005v Israel withdraws from gaza
2006 gazans elected political party who has in their charter DEATH TO JEWS, and denies Israel right to exist
2006 both Israel and Egypt blockade borders of gaza for their own safety
2006-present " Israel is occupying gaza" which is not only false but ignores the egypt blockade and the reasons why both countries do it (national security)
2024 people want to go back to 1949
Also partition plans discussed prior to 1946 discussed Israel getting half of the Palestinian Mandate. The Palestinian mandate included what today is jordan (became transjordan) and was freed from the mandate i believe in the early 40s? It made up over 75% of the mandate
What Israel has now, even if we include the west Bank and east Jerusalem and even gaza, is nowhere near 50% of the mandate
Oh i just checked
Transjordan was freed from the Palestinian mandate in 1946. Then Israel was offered about half of what was left
or you can be an active participant of the terrorist organization known as the IDF
who has killed more civilians? thats how you judge a terrorist group right, by the number of civilians they have killed
No. Terrorists are political extremists, not representing the legitimate armed forces of a recognised state, who engage in deadly violence to promote terror and not in pursuit of any legitimate military strategy. Legitimate armed forces may engage in activities that some people call terroristic, but they still aren't terrorists. Terrorism is essentially a private and recreational form of murder for personal gratification. Its usual, indeed almost invariable purpose is to provoke a reaction by the target state, which the terrorists calculate will provide a supposed continuing pretext for their preferred hobby of murder.
Legitimate armed forces can of course commit 'war crimes' by certain standards, but that is a different consideration. And killing civilians is not necessarily a war crime where civilians are the enemy or where they are in an area lawfully subject to bombardment (such as the cities of Nazi Germany during the Second World War, which were all arsenals, fortresses and 'defended places' within the meaning of the Hague Convention).
Israel shouldn't have to supply the water or anything. They refuse to do anything to help their people
Israel has a moral obligation to provide the necessities for survival to all populations they occupy, and anyone who says otherwise is ethically bankrupt at best and a war criminal at worst.
Israel has a moral obligation to provide the necessities for survival to all populations they occupy, and anyone who says otherwise is ethically bankrupt at best and a war criminal at worst.
Israel didn't occupy Gaza. They withdrew ages ago (before we got into this war).
I've shared the % of water and power Gaza gets from Israel. It's sub 20% of their total.
Egypt also borders with Gaza, and can send them all the power, fuel and water they want, any time.
One thing Israel can't do now, is offer Gazans work. I'm sure you understand why. But prior to Oct 7th that was also a big contention.
Israel didn't occupy Gaza. They withdrew ages ago (before we got into this war).
I've shared the % of water and power Gaza gets from Israel. It's sub 20% of their total.
Egypt also borders with Gaza, and can send them all the power, fuel and water they want, any time.
One thing Israel can't do now, is offer Gazans work. I'm sure you understand why. But prior to Oct 7th that was also a big contention.
This is disputed by many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch—as well as international legal experts and other organizations, who argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967.
While they acknowledge that Israel no longer had the traditional marker of effective control after the disengagement—a military presence—they hold that with the help of technology, it has maintained the requisite control in other ways.
Israel is morally obligated to provide the necessities for survival to the populations they occupy and/or control through military power. Arguing to cut off food, electricity, and water to a starving civilian population is probably the closest anyone has come to actually advocating for killing babies, BTW.
And I was responding to the quote “Israel shouldn’t have to supply them water.
Yes they absolutely ****ing do. That is what we are debating. Not how much, not the country over there. Israel. Israel is morally obligated to supply the civilian population with access to basic survival. The failure to do so is genocide.
what does that have to do with Kibbutz Re'im and Supernova? I would just love to know.
We can get into the other elements of the "map" stuff in other parts of this discussion, which is basically what's been already done ad nauseam in this thread. We aren't "discovering" anything here.
I assumed the rave was in a part of a contested area since it was so easily accessible to the Hamas terrorists
I will go look on a map and see where it is and then make an argument as to why that area was an appropriate military objective, and then I will argue that the govt has a responsibility to its people to keep them out of harms way, and I will conclude the argument by posting the links showing IDF knew an attack was being practiced and didnt move civilians from the areas being targeted.
but you already knew all of that, right?
This is disputed by many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International
If you're going to just paste some of the text and not cite your reference, it's worth letting them read it all. It's a lot more nuanced
Btw this is typically the spot where someone goes
"ok but hostages and human shields are against the Geneva Convention too!"
I'm not going to bother with the deflection. We can stick on topic. But if we start the international law game, it goes very badly for Hamas.
Be'eri is a kibbutz in southern Israel. Located in the north-western Negev desert near the eastern border with the Gaza Strip, it falls under the jurisdiction of Eshkol Regional Council. In 2021 it had a population of 1,047.
I dont think the israeli govt should allow civilians to be inside of contested areas in war zones. I dont think they should be anywhere close to where members of hamas can kill them. If govt is allowing people to live in these areas then the govt needs to understand that it is putting their lives at risk
when americans go to afghanistan and get kidnapped everyone says yea you shouldnt of gone to afghanistan, its dangerous.
this is the same idea
lets now google and see how long its been since that land was palestinian land
Be'eri is a kibbutz in southern Israel. Located in the north-western Negev desert near the eastern border with the Gaza Strip, it falls under the jurisdiction of Eshkol Regional Council. In 2021 it had a population of 1,047.
I dont think the israeli govt should allow civilians to be inside of contested areas in war zones. I dont think they should be anywhere close to where members of hamas can kill them. If govt is allowing people to live in
Bud these places have been places for over 70 years. Many of them were piles of sand before that (literally, the Israelis brought irrigation and rehabilitated actual arid piles of dirt). They aren't going to fold up these communities because of Hamas.
As you can see it's the opposite. They're going to fold Hamas.
Now right now, 100k people were evacuated from the North, ditto the South. They're in hotels. Once the threats have been eliminated, people will go back to their 3+ generation homes.
