Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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I have no doubt that this will go down in history as similar to the holocaust and the Armenian genocide.
Only 34 countries in the world have ever recognized there was an Armenian genocide. The only Muslim majority ones to do so are Lebanon and Syria (which both had significant Christian populations at the time). Much of the Muslim world views the Shoah as a complete exaggeration. This gets worse every generation. In a few generations there will be complete denial in the greater Muslim world that the Shoah or Armenian Genocide ever happened.
The only nations which have demonstrated any first principle concern for human rights are the ones you view as the bad guys and wish destruction on. All the people you view as the good guys dont even pretend to have any first principle concern for human rights. It is all just tribalism all the way down.
History will only remember there ever was a Shoah or Armenian genocide if there is a Western World to remember it. The rest of the world, especially the Muslim world, couldn't care less and have already erased both these incidents from history.
Also, the Armenian Genocide had over 1.5 million killed, not even counting the millions displaced. The Gaza "genocide" is somewhere around 30,000.
It is interesting to note that Turkey completely cleansed out millions of mostly Christians to form its current ethnostate, and this didn't even happen that much before the Nakbar, and history couldn't care less. Contrast this with all the outrage over the Nakbar or Gaza.
It really does show that all the outrage really is political, and no one actually cares about genocide; especially Muslim nations, who have spent most of the 20th-21st century (still very much ongoing) relentlessly ethnic cleansing formerly very diverse lands and creating ethnostates.
Seriously, look at the recent history of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Aizerbaijan, Sudan, Yemen. And we are supposed to be laser focused outraged on Israel and give no shits about all the rest? What is even going on here? Why is this one group of people so important, and everyone else so completely irrelevant?
This was a really interesting read for anyone curious about the 1973 war between Egypt and Israel
Also, the Armenian Genocide had over 1.5 million killed, not even counting the millions displaced. The Gaza "genocide" is somewhere around 30,000.
It is interesting to note that Turkey completely cleansed out millions of mostly Christians to form its current ethnostate, and this didn't even happen that much before the Nakbar, and history couldn't care less. Contrast this with all the outrage over the Nakbar or Gaza.
It really does show t
The world doesn't care much about how Turkey is doing ethnic cleansing to the Kurds right now. But why so many countries explicitly do not recognize the Armenian Genocide or the Kurdish cleansing is similar to why so few people talk about Tibet anymore. It's because Turkey very aggressively denies any wrong doing and will sanction any country that does recognize the atrocities. Turkey isn't nearly as powerful as China, so it can't push around as many countries. But still, lots of countries look at it as very little to gain by recognizing the atrocities and something to lose.
I don't really want to pat Germany on the back for just doing something right, but most countries recognizing the Jewish Holocaust has a lot to do with Germany facing up to what they did and that is unusual for something that wasn't at least several generations past.
The world doesn't care much about how Turkey is doing ethnic cleansing to the Kurds right now.
Dont forget Aizerbaijan currently cleansing the last remaining Armenians to complete formation of their religious enthnostate.
It really is amazing how the Muslim world demands so much and gives so little as far as acknowledging human rights abuses, and how much we completely acquiesce to these demands. The whole world is perpetually outraged about what is going on in Palestine-Israel; but there is so much ethnic cleansing, genocide and human rights abuses going on in this part of the world. But the Muslim world demands that no one else cares about any of it, except for Israel-Palestine which we are supposed to be perpetually outraged on their behalf, and so we are.
Does ending the occupation tomorrow maintain a reasonable degree of safety for Israel? I generally don't know the answer.
the indiscriminate rocket attacks would obviously start up again. most (not all) of them don't cause anything other than property damage, so there it depends on your definition of reasonable degree of safety
additionally, hamas have promised their people that they will drive the jews into the sea, and obviously its not just blowhard rhetoric, they really mean to do it. they are very weak at the moment and getting weaker by the hour, but the thing is you dont need to be all that strong to rape and murder teenage ravegoers
Well, if I followed your typical line of reasoning then I’d say something like You didn’t mention Catholics while criticizing Muslims so it must be Islamophobia
When I talked badly about unskilled, uneducated subsaharian immigrants trying criminally to enter Italy, I never used the word Muslim, and iirc we also discussed places where homosexuality is a crime because of christian fundamentalism not only because of Muslim fundamentalism, like Uganda and others
again, its real hard for me to follow why the Gazans need to be wiped out just bc of Muslim nations treating Jews badly at certain points in time.
Gazans don't need to be "wiped out", but Muslim nations could pay their part of reparations toward Jews by taking in the gazeans so the problem is solved permanently.
Or the only countries which are morally obligated to take refugees are the western ones?
You’re the one who claimed they are owed reparations from Europe et al.
Edit- Whoops, that was Luciom. Same difference eh
I didn't claim they are owed reparations by the USA though, which you instead claim was responsible for nit having stopped the Holocaust from happening (and that's truly an insane claim).
But that Germany should pay a portion of it's GDP for a couple of centuries to Israel ye I do think it would just be fair.
The world doesn't care much about how Turkey is doing ethnic cleansing to the Kurds right now. But why so many countries explicitly do not recognize the Armenian Genocide or the Kurdish cleansing is similar to why so few people talk about Tibet anymore. It's because Turkey very aggressively denies any wrong doing and will sanction any country that does recognize the atrocities. Turkey isn't nearly as powerful as China, so it can't push a
Germany faced up with what they did because they were allowed to deflect all responsibilities of their citizens, claiming it was all Hitler.
Millions of Nazi party members, each one of them individually responsible for all the atrocities, kept living normally not even losing their jobs in many cases.
There was also a complete break of the chain of government and a break up of the country so they were actually blaming someone else, not themselves.
Japan had no Hitler figure to blame for everything, the country stayed the same territorially (at least in the original pre war territory they had), emperor as well, which is why what they did in Manchuria and Korea which wasn't very dissimilar from the Holocaust and the holodomor and the Armenian genocide and so on, is "controversial" to this day.
Btw Italy is among the signatories calling the Armenian genocide as such and afaik there are no Turkish sanctions against Italy, Italians can travel there, and there is decent trade among the 2 nations.
Oh and china just genocided the Uighurs as well, it's not just Tibet.
Japan had Hirohito.
Denazification was a joke. And German denial was pretty strong for the actual generation of Nazis, but not so much for their children's generation. Even that little is a stark contrast to basically every other country that has done a genocide at the scale of millions of people.
And Turkey is super aggro on these issues, but of course there are limits. But even in the USA, the most powerful country in the world, presidents have been reluctant to say "Armenian Genocide" in the same way they've been afraid to say hello to the Dalia Lama because there's a risk/price to pay with Turkey.
I didn't claim they are owed reparations by the USA though, which you instead claim was responsible for nit having stopped the Holocaust from happening (and that's truly an insane claim).
But that Germany should pay a portion of it's GDP for a couple of centuries to Israel ye I do think it would just be fair.
Germany should and does pay some anyway. Poland and Ukraine should also pay... At least they should return stolen property which they never have done.
Japan had Hirohito.
Denazification was a joke. And German denial was pretty strong for the actual generation of Nazis, but not so much for their children's generation. Even that little is a stark contrast to basically every other country that has done a genocide at the scale of millions of people.
And Turkey is super aggro on these issues, but of course there are limits. But even in the USA, the most powerful country in the world, presiden
The USA might have other interests in play when it plays ball to Turkey about the armenian genocide, France was able to do this
/France's Macron announces national day marking Armenian genocide
French President Emmanuel Macron on Tuesday said France would make April 24 a "national day of commemoration of the Armenian genocide".
Issued on: 06/02/2019 /
with no serious consequences
Keep tearing down the hostage posters while we're at it. This way they can deny they ever had the ones that never returned
Believe all women except Jewish eyewitnesses!
This apparently has been published by the "Harvard Faculty and Staff for Justice in Palestine".
Gazans don't need to be "wiped out", but Muslim nations could pay their part of reparations toward Jews by taking in the gazeans so the problem is solved permanently.
Or the only countries which are morally obligated to take refugees are the western ones?
this is needlessly complicated and needlessly conflating like 3 different issues.
any Jews wronged by Muslim nations or Euro nations should be paid reparations as I have said many times. but why are you involving the Gazans?
and further, in your scheme, why should only Muslim nations take in Gazans? shouldnt Germany, Poland, Baltic nations and others who certainly stole from and murdered Jews thus owing reparations be included in your scheme?
Believe all women except Jewish eyewitnesses!
lol eyewitnesses
believe all women except Palestinian victims
this is needlessly complicated and needlessly conflating like 3 different issues.
any Jews wronged by Muslim nations or Euro nations should be paid reparations as I have said many times. but why are you involving the Gazans?
and further, in your scheme, why should only Muslim nations take in Gazans? shouldnt Germany, Poland, Baltic nations and others who certainly stole from and murdered Jews thus owing reparations be included in your sch
Poland was the victim lol , as well as baltic nations, during ww2, both of nazism and communism, unclear why you put those countries in the list of those who have to pay anything to third parties.
Gazans have taken refuge in many western nations in the past decades, i am not saying only muslim nations should take them. But in general it's better for someone to live in a place that shares his cultural values and political preferences, is it not? why force a foreign culture upon them, they should be given a choice closer to how they see life.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
Completely disregarding any moral issues, Israel is really missing out on an opportunity here imo.
(article really goes out of its way to not suggest who might have fired at food trucks.)
I think the events of the last months have maybe made this impossible, but I think the divisions of land in the West Bank are not quite impossible to undo. The two largest settlements, which are the largest by a fair amount, border the border and most of the others with any significant population are either on the border or close.
With the political will, the settlements could be undone post haste. But the will to give up the WB hasn't existed for 50 years and certainly not now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
Completely disregarding any moral issues, Israel is really missing out on an opportunity here imo.
(article really goes out of its way to not suggest who might have fired at food trucks.)
Israel almost surely shot at the food trucks.
on another occasion they bombed food trucks from a navy vessel.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/middleeas...
these people have every right to raid the food trucks as soon as possible considering Israel will bomb them the first chance they get.
