Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
martial law, by its nature is always going to be a consolidation of power and undemocratic. you can argue the reasons are worthwhile and in good faith. but thats not the question.
furthermore, there is no reason that they couldnt hold elections despite the martial law, or suspend martial law to have the elections.
Martial law is not necessarily undemocratic. In this case, martial law is used to protect democracy against an invasion by a kleptocratic government. We just saw what their "election" looks like.
You're correct that the question isn't whether or not the reasons are worthwhile and in good faith, which is why they haven't been brought up until now.
I did not think that the idea that Zelenskyy wants to stay in power would be so controversial.
Nice goalpost shift. You called declaring martial law a "neat trick" used by Zelenskyy to remain in office. When asked to clarify your statement, you agreed that you meant Zelenskyy uses martial law as a pretext to stay in power (maybe it was not worded exactly like that, but that was absolutely the meaning of the question).
That is absolutely controversial, mostly because it is so incredibly removed from reality.
But no, your goalpost shift is incorrect too: Zelenskyy does not really want to stay in power. He wanted one term. He said once the war is over he will retire. There's no reason not to believe him.
He agreed that's what he was saying.
That's it.
You two have both been invited to summarize the statement honestly and refused to do so. I believe it's because any honest summary would pretty much prove that the statement says Zelenskyy was faking his reasoning for declaring martial law.
I honestly can't tell if you believe that someone must have used an exact word in order for it to be an accurate description of something someone said.
zelensky got 30% in the first round of the 2019 elections.
and it's parliament which renews the state of emergency not the president in Ukraine, and zelensky party only has a slim majority on their parliament.
so if anything it's a "conspiracy" of a lot of people, not only the president.
theres no conspiracy. its just an example of how Ukraine is not all that democratic despite what the West tries to make people believe. remember this whole conversation started with criticism of Putin's elections.
I am not going to argue that Russia a bastion of democracy. but, just like Ukraine, they are following the "rules" that they created. following those laws does not make a country democratic.
theres no conspiracy. its just an example of how Ukraine is not all that democratic despite what the West tries to make people believe. remember this whole conversation started with criticism of Putin's elections.
I am not going to argue that Russia a bastion of democracy. but, just like Ukraine, they are following the "rules" that they created. following those laws does not make a country democratic.
It is democratic to postpone elections during actual emergencies.
Some European countries did for COVID lol which is infinitely less serious than an actual war of occupation.
If that kept going on for years you might have a point, but that isn't the case yet.
BGP you made a broad summary, said is this more or less accurate , Vic said well yea and then you said ok you’re saying Zelensky declared martial law cause he’s faking it. That’s an exclusionary word and not something that Victor had said before. You’re saying oh he’s only faking it, Vic said he’s faking it!
And clearly Zelensky wants to stay in power , maybe he’s faking needing martial law to stay in power, maybe he isn’t. But those were your words, not victors.
Saying something is similar or agreeing is not the same as saying it.
No. I made a precise statement and he agreed to it. That precise statement can correctly be defined as "faking", or in other words stating a fake reason for doing what he is doing. You two went on a pedantic tirade, while also refusing to use your word choice to describe stating a fake reason for why someone is doing something because you both knew it would prove me correct. Vic then tried to backtrack his statements significantly.
Saying something is similar or agreeing is not the same as saying it.
Now you're getting into some pedantry that agreeing to something is not the same as saying it. What he is agreeing to is the meaning of what he originally said: that Zelenskyy's use of martial law is "one neat trick for democracy without elections" .
so not only did he say it, but he agreed when I asked the meaning of what he said. You're wrong. You've been wrong this entire time. The words are very clear.
I did not agree with all the bullshit you been spewing. I'm sorry that Ukraine is really not better than Russia. The world is a dark place.
BGP you made a broad summary, said is this more or less accurate , Vic said well yea and then you said ok you’re saying Zelensky declared martial law cause he’s faking it. That’s an exclusionary word and not something that Victor had said before. You’re saying oh he’s only faking it, Vic said he’s faking it!
And clearly Zelensky wants to stay in power , maybe he’s faking needing martial law to stay in power, maybe he isn’t. But those were y
It's parliament which renews the state of emergency!
And polls have been conducted about this as well, something like 80% of Ukrainians polled agree to postpone the elections.
I did not agree with all the bullshit you been spewing. I'm sorry that Ukraine is really not better than Russia. The world is a dark place.
It's your bullshit:
False, Zelenskyy did not cancel elections. As you've been told multiple times now, elections are not held when the country is under martial law.
Are you suggesting that Zelenskyy declares martial law and the parliament approves it not because of the invasion and existential threat that Ukraine faces, but so that Zelenskyy can remain in power without an election?
You said this stuff. If you disagree with my use of the word "faking" to describe what you believe Zelenskyy is doing, then whatever. Use whatever word you want, as I've said it's not important.
What is important is your dehumanizing a victim, and constantly attacking them. This is just the most recent batch of attempts.
Zelensky declared martial law to consolidate power and avoid an election. if he wanted to have elections then he would have them.
Zelensky declared martial law to consolidate power and avoid an election. if he wanted to have elections then he would have them.
Zelensky declared martial law 20 months before the elections because Ukraine was ****ing invaded .
And it is still invaded and it is ILLEGAL to have elections until there is martial law, per their laws.
For one, how do you fill the seats of Parliament that represent Donbass districts? How do you guarantee safe voting procedures for people near the conflict areas?
Jfc man, you hit the bottom low every time
democracy is ILLEGAL in the country that we must support and force to keep fighting to save Western Democracy. Orwell would be proud.
It is not illegal lol.
Democracy is up and running. It is even holding back important legislation due to the infighting in parliament.
Educate yourself if you're going to attack a nation's right to fight against genocide and invasion.
It is not illegal lol.
Democracy is up and running. It is even holding back important legislation due to the infighting in parliament.
Educate yourself if you're going to attack a nation's right to fight against genocide and invasion.
Lol I'm not attacking their right for anything. I am simply saying that they are undemocratic at the moment. Maybe that will change soon!
And what you are simply saying is simply incorrect.
I believe they are using measures that democracy voted for. Democracy doesn’t mean freedom. It means you get to vote and then those things happen.
Meloni (Italian prime minister) speaking in the Italian senate about Putin ( I am only very slightly paraphrasing): "how ****ing stupid can you be to believe that trying to negotiate with him will ever end well, he never kept his promises".
This is what being actually right-wing has always being about.
No bullshitting, no fear of using power and violence when needed against enemies.
Martial law is declared in Ukraine not because of the invasion but so zelenskyy can stay in power without elections.
Resolution of dignity was a nazi coup.
Ukraine shot down a pow transport to signal that surrendering was unacceptable.
Ukraine proving that 40 civilians were shot by Yankuoych's police is proof that there were nazi snipers shooting protestors as a false flag operation.
Putin offered to give back kherson and kharkiv.
Which of these do you deny saying? As you know the majority of the proof is gone so I might not be able to find the posts for all.
American liberals: everything I don't like is Russian or Hamas propaganda
These people will believe anything rather than criticize USA.
Apparently some of the Russian propaganda you were spewing was so bad that you're now denying having said it!
Not everything I dislike is Russian or hamas propaganda. A lot of the stuff you post absolutely is.
Zelensky declared martial law to consolidate power and avoid an election. if he wanted to have elections then he would have them.
democracy is ILLEGAL in the country that we must support and force to keep fighting to save Western Democracy. Orwell would be proud.
I never realized elections and democracy were so important to you.
its really not. bc its a myth. but its the hypocrisy of liberals that always upsets me. these holier than thou clowns will breathlessly spew about liberal democracy and then cancel elections and blame Putin. they are a joke and their ideas are a joke.
the funny thing is that they are just mad that Putin is doing liberal democracy better than them.
its really not. bc its a myth. but its the hypocrisy of liberals that always upsets me. these holier than thou clowns will breathlessly spew about liberal democracy and then cancel elections and blame Putin. they are a joke and their ideas are a joke.
the funny thing is that they are just mad that Putin is doing liberal democracy better than them.
Voting to cancel elections for a time being is democracy
naw
