Israel/Palestine thread

And yet nobody adheres to them (the definitions), so I always find myself having to ask.

The colloquial definition is nation OR ethnic group. So is this it genocide of Palestinians as an ethnicity? In which case I guess we must include the West Bank? And the end goal is to deliberately destroy that group? Do you think we're baring witness to the "end" of Palestinians?

This is why I have to ask such dumb questions. Because the accusations themselves don't hold water to me.

The Nazis wanted to end the Jews. It didn't matter where they were, if they could get access to them, they methodically ended them. And solely for the crime of "being Jewish".

That, is not this.

You really should read the Masha Gessen article that I linked about 5 times

Why do you think this is the end of the Israeli attempts against Palestinians?

And clearly two things can be diffferent and still be a genocide.

You’re making up your Own definitions and then saying Israel isn’t doing a genocide.

What is this, Minority Report? This is the pre-crime version of Genocide where we decide what's later?

I'm not making my own definitions at all. It's simply not taking place.

It can be both horrible and not genocide. That is actually a possibility.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-con...

‘Multiple factual flaws’: Israel contests UN-backed report on imminent famine in Gaza

“Even at the height of hostilities, in a war that was forced upon it, Israel places no limits on the amount of aid that can enter Gaza, and absolutely does not limit the entrance of food. Israel also facilitates entry of complementary products such as cooking gas and diesel fuel for the operation of aid centers, bakeries, etc. Additionally, 14 million liters of water are supplied by Israel.”

It added that “in recent months between 150 and 200 trucks are admitted per day, most of which are food trucks. This is an 80% spike in comparison to the daily average food trucks that entered Gaza pre-October 7.”

An anonymous US State Department official told Reuters on Friday that there was currently an average of 250 aid trucks a day entering Gaza, but more were needed. The official said the US was working to help get more aid regularly through Gate 96, a new entry point to reach north Gaza, citing a lack of vetted drivers.

He said that separately Israel had facilitated some 350-400 trucks of privately contracted humanitarian aid to northern Gaza over the past three or four weeks.

If Genocide was the intent, would we see 80% more trucks per day than pre Oct 7th? Does that make sense? Food prices have been dropping steadily. Not usually the sign of massive shortages

https://report.az/en/other-countries/foo...

In the last few days, the food prices in the Gaza Strip have dropped twofold and more. Report informs referring to Maarif that the variety of food products in the market has also increased. The price for one kilogram of sugar decreased from 70 shekels ($19.06) to 20 shekels ($5.44).

It could clearly be better. But I think there's a pretty heavy duty media battle on with this issue, which is about par for the course for this conflict. Or at a minimum we need to ask ourselves if everything we read is the truth.

There is a possibility that Israel could be liable under Art.II (c) of the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide (General Assembly Resolution 206A III, 9 December 1948), for 'Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part'. This would relate to what appears to be the deliberate imposition of famine and military aggression against relief efforts, following on the established long-term blockade policy intended to impose marginally sub-malnutrition levels of supplies.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mec...

Never seen a definition of genocide that had to do with amounts of water supplied. Can you link to that definition or nah?

You could probably name 10 nations/paramilitary groups in the Middle East/Horn of Africa/Maghreb (basically the greater historical Islamic world) where this would qualify. This is where the whole criticism of Israel falls apart for me, is that most of the people most critical of Israel are so completely agnostic (or often supportive) of what is going on everywhere else.

Why should anyone pay special attention to the grievances of people with no first principles other than virulent antisemitism?

Man the antisemitism accusation BS gets very boring after a while. It's done on purpose to deligitimize any criticism of Israel.

Boring af. A lot like this thread

Any y'all wanna get your ya-yas out with the antisemitism, I'll treat ya to 18 holes in the KC Metro

PMs open

Antisemitism and pro-turd wah wat you doing?

No.

In the Ukraine thread the evolution of the genocide discussion was Victor vehemently denying that Putin's attempt to wipe out Ukrainian identity was a genocide. Afterwards he began begging the thread not to discuss genocide because no one was an "arbiter" of genocide. Then he said Ukraine is not a genocide, Gaza is.

Ironically he jokingly compared Putin's actions to Israel's, yet somehow Ukraine are the nazis in that conflict...

Nazi is a slur to attack whoever he does not like (which really means whoever is with "the West") in an attempt to dehumanize them and justify horrendous actions against them.

I dont think Putin is trying to wipe out Ukrainian identity or the Ukrainian people. the civilian death tolls show this. we have seen nothing in Ukraine that is remotely like what is going on in Gaza.

when the Western media spent years writing pieces about how there were a bunch of neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine, was that a slur?

also, I kinda want to see where I called Israel Nazis. and I want to see when. so I am not sure why there is all of a sudden a bunch of posts about something I didnt say.

and by horrendous actions, you mean that I want a cease-fire in Ukraine and have wanted that from day 1?

If Israel is determined to go into Gaza no matter what, might be better to just do it under him, so whoever comes to power after doesn't have all the baggage attached to them at all.

I suspect the "irresponsibility" of the Gaza campaign is being dramatically overblown, and most of the people pumping out and consuming the pro Hamas propaganda it actually doesn't matter what Israel does, their narratives are going to be consistent. And the campaign isn't going to be dramatically more "responsible" under someone else, because given the dynamics of the conflict there probably isn't a lot of room to be more "responsible" and still achieve military objectives.

https://www.prlib.ru/en/article-vladimir...

Meanwhile, in Putin's own words:

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole...

Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians are all descendants of Ancient Rus...

The throne of Kiev held a dominant position in Ancient Rus. This had been the custom since the late 9th century. The Tale of Bygone Years captured for posterity the words of Oleg the Prophet about Kiev, ”Let it be the mother of all Russian cities."...

The name ”Ukraine“ was used more often in the meaning of the Old Russian word ”okraina“ (periphery), which is found in written sources from the 12th century, referring to various border territories. And the word ”Ukrainian“, judging by archival documents, originally referred to frontier guards who protected the external borders...

At the same time, the idea of Ukrainian people as a nation separate from the Russians started to form and gain ground among the Polish elite and a part of the Malorussian intelligentsia. Since there was no historical basis – and could not have been any, conclusions were substantiated by all sorts of concoctions, which went as far as to claim that the Ukrainians are the true Slavs and the Russians, the Muscovites, are not. Such ”hypotheses“ became increasingly used for political purposes as a tool of rivalry between European states...

--He then goes on to basically blame Europe for creating a fake Ukranian identity to fragment Russia. So yeah, going off Putin's own words and actions it is pretty clear he is trying to wipe out Ukranian identity.

All indications are the initial plan was to quickly topple the Ukranian govt and set up a puppet Russian friendly one, like in Belorussia. So I think it is fair to say wiping out the Ukrainian people was not the goal; but if that is what it takes to conquer Ukraine it seems Putin is willing to go that far.

Putin def doing a genocide. He’s trying to absorb Ukrainian identity and make them Russian.

thats why he offered multiple negotiated settlements.

when we start seeing horrendous murder of civilians, destruction of infrastructure, and torturing of civilians similar to Gaza then I will gladly admit I was wrong.

Well they've got the Russian language down now just the vodka.

Can offer all kinds of things , doesn’t preclude one from doing a genocide.

lol caitlin rarely misses. and she sure nails you here

So the US just has horribly bad information or they're going out of their way to make Israel look bad by doing air drops? If Gaza has been overflowing with food all this time why would the US do this?

We do seem to mostly agree.

I'm not sure Europe is willing or able to be the failsafe. Netanyahu & co have done a lot of damage to support in Europe as well and we can't even get our act together for Ukraine.