Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
I dont see any way that this bill somehow gets rid of democracy in Georgia. like, oh noes, we gotta register our foreign NGOs as foreign.
Having NGOs in the country to verify that democracy was upheld fairly is a big deal towards having legitimate elections, especially in this area of the world. Almost all NGOs have more than 20% foreign funding and are now foreign agents (because they promote democracy). The people ensuring democracy are now people beholden to Putin.
They are registered as foreign agents as they literally are, and are still allowed to operate. As are election monitors. And orgs receiving russian money have to register as well
I think we disagree
if yourr democractically elected leaders decide to end democracy, thats what you voted for. It is literally democracy in action, unless of course there is a definition that specifically says voting to do away with democracy is not democratic
I think we disagree
if yourr democractically elected leaders decide to end democracy, thats what you voted for. It is literally democracy in action, unless of course there is a definition that specifically says voting to do away with democracy is not democratic
That's not what's happening though and no you don't vote to change the constitution with simple majorities even in Georgia so they can't with simple majorities "end democracy".
Fact is this law doesn't violate the constitution, and doesn't end democracy.
I'm sure you guys would be saying the same thing if Trump made him god-emperor.
"Whelp, legally elected. That's just how it works."
I'm sure you guys would be saying the same thing if Trump made him god-emperor.
"Whelp, legally elected. That's just how it works."
Hm no, did you read the part about the constitution? that's what defines what's legal or not in every democracy, and literally the totality of the outcomes the constitution allows are democratic (by definition) , but those don't include being "god-emperor", in the USA.
Legally elected, and it can use it's constitutional powers in literally any way that doesn't violate the constitution itself, and when he does no matter what he does inside that range of possibility, it's always democratic for him to do that.
Can't go like "i dislike this law because it's effects imho are bad on MY IDEA OF WHAT A COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE", so this law is "anti-democratic".
That's not how it works.
This law re foreign agents is disliked by many georgians because they know it blocks access to the EU. That's it. No end of democracy or anything else.
And they can vote different parties very soon and cancel the law, which would be normal in a democracy, which they are.
We should not abuse the notion of democracy dying to criticize laws we dislike , because then we lose the moral standing to discuss actual violations of democratic norms, when they happen.
For ex it's plausible than in Georgia anti-democratic events were or are happening, like bullshit prosecution of opposition leaders (which afaik stopped recently, in order to start EU access path).
But this foreign agent registration law isn't anti-democratic, and many democratic countries have similar laws. It's just that some international leftists hate the idea of being limited or monitored in the amount of influence they are allowed to have in foreign countries and as usual, for the left anythign that damages the left is anti-democratic. But i don't fall for that definition of democracy, that according to which when the people vote "wrong" (ie not on the left, or not according to the left wishes) then it's antidemocratic.
Fine, if Trump institutes a law which removes all voter transparency and then miraculously his relatives keep getting elected, would anyone be upset or would they just say "Well that's democracy".
Right now that process is beginning and you are suggesting "just see how it plays out, maybe it won't be so bad." The people in the democratic nation are on the street saying they don't want to see how it plays out because they've already seen how it plays out. These people did elect the party that promised to bring them to the EU, much like Yanukovych claimed he would do. Then somehow both suddenly completely flipped on EU membership almost overnight.
If you really don't see what's happening here then I can't really help. We'll just have to wait a few years and see if this is all going to be fixed by democracy in a system where the voting process is no longer transparent or if the person who has a history of attempting to make puppet states, who already invaded their country, who clearly has already taken control of the government, makes Georgia into a puppet state.
its hard for me to understand how a bill that calls for more transparency, is actually not transparent.
Where's the confusion PW?
Fine, if Trump institutes a law which removes all voter transparency and then miraculously his relatives keep getting elected, would anyone be upset or would they just say "Well that's democracy".
Right now that process is beginning and you are suggesting "just see how it plays out, maybe it won't be so bad." The people in the democratic nation are on the street saying they don't want to see how it plays out because they've already seen how
The people are in the street because they want quick access to EU and/or NATO because they fear being Ukraine 2.0. This law delays that process.
But they voted a party which explicitly didn't want to go allin anti-russia rather play both sides. The party which got them on the path for EU membership to be clear.
It's not about "let's see how it plays out", it's about they can literally change all of this very soon with the elections in october.
Unclear why you think this foreign agent law makes the voting process no longer transparent. Election monitors aren't banned from the country, nor is foreign media nor NGOs.
Unclear what you think Trump could do to the voting process (nothing re voting is among POTUS powers afaik), but anything he wanted to do which was constitutional would still leave the USA a democracy yes.
if they are breaking the law then sure democracy bye bye. if not, then its democracy in action
I'm sure you guys would be saying the same thing if Trump made him god-emperor.
"Whelp, legally elected. That's just how it works."
i mean if he did it legally then sure.
Fine, if Trump institutes a law which removes all voter transparency and then miraculously his relatives keep getting elected, would anyone be upset or would they just say "Well that's democracy".
Right now that process is beginning and you are suggesting "just see how it plays out, maybe it won't be so bad." The people in the democratic nation are on the street saying they don't want to see how it plays out because they've already seen how
how would trump institute a law? thats not how laws work in the US afaik.
Do you mean an executive order/action? Are those laws?
I'm not arguing that bad things aren't happening, i'm arguing that what youre saying is or isnt democracy is wrong.
What does this law have to do with the EU?
It will force NGOs out of the country.
PW: to stay consistent with the Georgia example, the method would be coercing Congress.
What does this law have to do with the EU?
It will force NGOs out of the country.
PW: to stay consistent with the Georgia example, the method would be coercing Congress.
is this coercion illegal? thats the question. Democracy doesnt mean moral.
I would be VERY surprised if the uprisings/responses in former soviet satellite states were 100% legit. Or even 80% legit
Coercion is illegal, yes.
Around 80% of Georgians want to join EU. They voted for a party that said they would help join EU. Since they have not, there should be drastic shift in the next election towards parliament members who will help join EU.
Let's see what happens in the next few years.
Around 80% of Georgians want to join EU. They voted for a party that said they would help join EU. Since they have not, there should be drastic shift in the next election towards parliament members who will help join EU.
Let's see what happens in the next few years.
Why the bold? they literally got on EU access path last year !
Why? they can stay and list everything they spend for transparently, why would that force them out?
This law has to do with the EU , because the EU explicitly told Georgia they didn't want that law to pass (so much for "coercion" by foreign powers btw)
They are required to give up ANY DOCUMENT that is asked of them. There are no confidential files. NGOs will not stay.
EU saying that they don't want a bill to pass because it will ruin democracy in a country is not coercion. If you really think there is no coercion here, even if I cannot say exactly what coercion Putin resorted to, then you are naive. We have already seen this in multiple countries now.
They are required to give up ANY DOCUMENT that is asked of them. There are no confidential files. NGOs will not stay.
EU saying that they don't want a bill to pass because it will ruin democracy in a country is not coercion. If you really think there is no coercion here, even if I cannot say exactly what coercion Putin resorted to, then you are naive. We have already seen this in multiple countries now.
naive is a polite word to use when describing luciom
