Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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You haven't asked me if I consider what Hamas did a genocide. If you did, the answer I would give you is "no".
It was certainly a declaration of a war, a pogrom, and one of the most atrocious days documented on film in an era. But no, the war crimes committed there wouldn't amount to genocide. But when your enemy CELEBRATES that day, and promises more of them...You're at war.
When we see the video and photo evidence of that day alongside the hostage/survivor and victim statements, it's not hard to see why so many put on the uniform to go strike at Hamas. There was simply no choice but to make sure this could never happen again.
Man vs. Bear isn't even a fair contest anymore, it should be like Man vs. Really Hungry Bear and I think women are still 90% Team Bear.
proof needed for western armies. I need proof for the claim "all men equally". That the propensity to rape is higher in men than in women is biologically obvious. Proof needed that all culture in all of history managed that propensity identically. Otherwise we can *rank cultures for their propensity to allow rape* in a moral sense, which would put western culture above basically all others, in that regard.
A lot of proof needed to deny that
I can try to get you a library card, friend. Women's history is an extensive subject at this point, and nothing I've said here is a fringe viewpoint. I think that can be difficult for some people to digest.
The fact remains sexual violence almost certainly occurred and is still occurring on both sides, because that is the nature of men and war.
I can try to get you a library card, friend. Women's history is an extensive subject at this point, and nothing I've said here is a fringe viewpoint. I think that can be difficult for some people to digest.
The fact remains sexual violence almost certainly occurred and is still occurring on both sides, because that is the nature of men and war.
How is the bold relevant if we don't talk frequencies?
I am not saying what you said is "fringe", i am said it's based on a marxist field of inquiry which as such as no validity in finding any actual truth. The totality of the intellectual production of marxists should never be used to inform opinions in general. A field *created* by a marxist, even less.
Also, Gerda Lerner is a Jew who escaped Nazi Europe, for your reference. So I am also quite sure no attack you levy against her will be new or unique.
It might be an indictment of men, but in doing so it removes blame from individuals.
That does not follow at all.
I am going to guess that occurences of rape in western militaries today are far fewer than they were in the WW2 example, largely because men do care about this issue.
Do they? Cause I'm reading a few of the comments today and I'm not so sure. There's a whole cohort of pre-teen boys who idolize Andrew Tate, you're going to need to show your work here vis-a-vis men taking rape seriously.
It follows.
Pre teen boys aren't in western militaries.
I think over the past 300ish years women have gained power and that's probably reduced the incidence of rape [CITATION NEEDED], but it's not obvious to me that men have improved in any significant way and I need more than feels as evidence.
We're arriving at the predictable point where the powerful/powerless colonizer/colonized paradigm often fails. We were destined to get here.
And when it does fail as it has here, it always produces things like:
-rape denial
-oh but all armies rape
-but were the rapes coordinated?
-surely at some point the IDF raped
-tearing down hostage posters
-calling a Kibbutz a military installation
-calling any adult in Israel a soldier and every Palestinian a civilian
-calling the acts of Oct 7th "resistance"
These things I've listed are absolutely necessary for this powerful/powerless viewpoint of this world. And they're necessary because the people who back the "powerless" need them for their world to make any sense. You're the "righteous" ones. You're on the "right side of history". It stands to reason you must be rooting for good, right?
But what is obvious to anyone who understands humans, is you can be both less powerful, and HORRIBLE. There is absolutely no reason for those things to be mutually exclusive. So now we watch the world wiggle itself into a pretzel on what Hamas is. Denying or maneuvering around that darkness is all there is left to do.
I think over the past 300ish years women have gained power and that's probably reduced the incidence of rape [CITATION NEEDED], but it's not obvious to me that men have improved in any significant way and I need more than feels as evidence.
Do you think rape in afghanistan by american soldiers was comparable in frequency to rape in Rome under barbarian invasions or Jerusalem with crusaders or Poland with nazist and russian armies?
do you think american soldiers raped far less if at all in afghanistan because afghani women have more power, or can you accept they did because they simply were far better morally than red army soldiers, nazi soldiers, barbarians and crusaders?
We're arriving at the predictable point where the powerful/powerless colonizer/colonized paradigm often fails. We were destined to get here.
And when it does fail as it has here, it always produces things like:
-rape denial
-oh but all armies rape
-but were the rapes coordinated?
-surely at some point the IDF raped
-tearing down hostage posters
-calling a Kibbutz a military installation
-calling any adult in Israel a soldier and every Palestinian
Part of the cognitive dissonance you're experiencing is due to the black and white thinking that has permeated this conflict. Intersectionality and nuance are not addressed when using purely enemy/ally and good/bad framing. There are numerous power structures that interplay with one another, and you will not be able to accurately analyze debates like this when the only colors you are using are black and white and the conflict is infinite shades of gray.
I don't say this to pick on you. Clearly this is a common issue among posters itt.
You, like almost all the male posters itt, have approached the issue of rape and rape denial from the standpoint of Israel vs Hamas power structure, and I have approached it from the standpoint of men vs women power structure. You do, in fact, need both perspectives to accurately analyze the claims.
Do you think rape in afghanistan by american soldiers was comparable in frequency to rape in Rome under barbarian invasions or Jerusalem with crusaders or Poland with nazist and russian armies?
do you think american soldiers raped far less if at all in afghanistan because afghani women have more power, or can you accept they did because they simply were far better morally than red army soldiers, nazi soldiers, barbarians and crusaders?
lol how can anyone answer a question like that?
You keep using the word intersectionality, is there a way to say what you mean that doesn't use words and framing of thought invented by marxists?
Do you at least accept that there are a lot of people who consider all those marxist created branches of social sciences, ideas, frames of thought as utter crap ? do you realize talking about "the patriarchy" and "intersectionality" is an extremely partisan way to discuss things?
Even the "power structure" framework is a marxist one. You talk like the wokes, and you do on trans topics as well. A lot of people fully reject everything linked to wokism, it's not that we don't understand, it's that we consider it a completly illegitimate way to have useful discussions about any topic
why? it's patently obvious that american soldiers raped less in afghanistan simply because they were morally far superior to red army soldiers, nazi soldiers, barbarians and crusaders.
Their culture didn't justify rape in war while the other cultures did. Which makes those other cultures *objectively inferior morally* at least for that topic.
Now the question is how much the culture shared by active terrorist members of Hamas justifies rape in war, or of "the enemy" in general.
Do you think rape in afghanistan by american soldiers was comparable in frequency to rape in Rome under barbarian invasions or Jerusalem with crusaders or Poland with nazist and russian armies?
do you think american soldiers raped far less if at all in afghanistan because afghani women have more power, or can you accept they did because they simply were far better morally than red army soldiers, nazi soldiers, barbarians and crusaders?
Some of us remember when US soldiers gan...
On the day of the massacre, Abeer's father Qassim was enjoying time with his family, while his sons were at school.[13] In broad daylight, the four U.S. soldiers walked to the house, not wearing their uniforms, but wearing army-issue long underwear — reportedly to look like "ninjas"[9] — and separated 14-year-old Abeer and her family into two different rooms. Spielman was responsible for grabbing Abeer's 6-year-old sister, who was outside the house with her father, and bringing her inside the house.[14] Green then broke Abeer's mother's arms (likely resulting from a struggle that began when she heard her daughter being raped in the other room) and murdered her parents and younger sister, while two other soldiers, Cortez and Barker, raped Abeer.[15] Barker wrote that Cortez pushed Abeer to the floor, lifted her dress, and tore off her underwear while she struggled. According to Cortez, Abeer "kept squirming and trying to keep her legs closed and saying stuff in Arabic," as he and Barker took turns holding her down and raping her.[16]
Cortez testified that Abeer heard the gunshots in the room in which her parents and little sister were being held, causing her to scream and cry even more. Green then emerged from the room saying, "I just killed them, all are dead."[17] Green, who later said the crime was "awesome,"[18] then raped Abeer, afterwards shooting her in the head multiple times. After the massacre, Barker poured petrol on Abeer and the soldiers set fire to the lower part of the girl's body. Barker testified that the soldiers gave Spielman their bloodied clothes to burn and that he threw the AK-47 used to murder the family into a canal. They left to "celebrate" their crimes with a meal of chicken wings.
UN’s top court orders Israel to immediately halt Rafah offensive
ICJ president says humanitarian situation in Gaza’s southernmost city is now classified as ‘disastrous’
yes, have you read the part about frequency? you need like 20k cases like that per year to come close to the 4 events i described.
We have a problem if quantification doesn't matter over large numbers.
You keep using the word intersectionality, is there a way to say what you mean that doesn't use words and framing of thought invented by marxists?
Do you at least accept that there are a lot of people who consider all those marxist created branches of social sciences, ideas, frames of thought as utter crap ? do you realize talking about "the patriarchy" and "intersectionality" is an extremely partisan way to discuss things?
Even the "power s
Unfortunately, I am highly educated and "quite smart as well", as LB would say, so I am not currently willing or able to do away with all the critical thinking and reasoning skills I worked so hard to attain.
Unfortunately, I am highly educated and "quite smart as well", as LB would say, so I am not currently willing or able to do away with all the critical thinking and reasoning skills I worked so hard to attain.
Ok then just accept you won't be able to discuss with that frame with everyone who rejects that frame (not only this topic, but in general).
It's we deny the words you use have meaning
It isn't an excuse. Its an indictment. If men were so horrified by rape, they would stop each other from raping. Instead, its a hallmark of male violence that permeates the entirety of human history.
100%. Anyone who says otherwise is arguing in bad faith and being sexist imo
It might be an indictment of men, but in doing so it removes blame from individuals.
I am going to guess that occurences of rape in western militaries today are far fewer than they were in the WW2 example, largely because men do care about this issue.
By removing all details that occur between "any rape occurred" and "rape was a coordinated effort", the matter is simplified in a manner that removes any individual accountability and in this c
Here’s the sexism lmao. Don’t tell girls they are wrong about sexual assault. Your opinions thoughts and ideas are invalid and not welcome in this space
You can have that opinion but it goes against all empirical evidence of women’s history of sexual violence in war time. Indeed, it is a phenomenon that has not diminished within the framework of other atrocities within modern history. You can be mad at me for citing it, or mad at the men who make it true. The patriarchy is a monolith, but if you want to “not all men” me, by all means, I am versed in that arena.
Exactly
If we didn’t want men to rape we would shoot them in the head on the spot. Instead it’s a “boys will be boys” attitude
wait.... do people still believe the nyt mass rape story was real journalism?
i thought that was completely exposed as made up, and everyone agreed it was made up, no?
tbh, I didn't really follow what was going on too closely... but I assumed that was the case. is that not the case?
interesting
i'd like to see ol drooling idiot brandon wriggle his way out of this jam
(spoiler: he wont)
