Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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You are aware Israel isn't a signatory of the Rome Statute right, so the ICC has no jurisdiction in Israel?
Do you know anything about the topics you talk about?
You dont understand how invasions work do you? You violate international law, we start ****ing your **** up. We dont care if you agreed to the ICC or not.
I went to a rave next to a large, significant military base. I considered how I would feel if an Oct 7 attack took place, targeting the airforce base I was parting next to. I considered how I would feel if everyone at the rave was killed.
and I said to myself, that would be my fault for partying next to a military base, and I would understand why the russians or native americans or whoever attacked the military base.
thats what happened.
Is that hard for you to understand?
You are aware Israel isn't a signatory of the Rome Statute right, so the ICC has no jurisdiction in Israel?
Do you know anything about the topics you talk about?
Yes quite. This makes it far more likely of course that Israel and the IDF were going to be involved in widespread atrocities.
Send in the UN now and escort the IDF leadership and Israeli cabinet to The Hague.
Yes quite. This makes it far more likely of course that Israel and the IDF were going to be involved in widespread atrocities.
Your colleague PW clamed he wants the law to be followed and that's why he is against torture of terrorists by the IDF.
Just clarified to him that the alleged torture might actually have been legal , if it had happened.
I have no problem for you using atrocity to describe events you dislike. That's a subjective evaluation.
But as for the specific atrocity of raping civilian women randomly , for the fun of it, like Hamas was found to do by the UN, the UN report doesn't claim that for the IDF, at all.
You can go on as much as you want claiming that torturing terrorists for information or for vengeance is worse or as bad as raping women who did nothing wrong for fun only because they are Israeli.
Most people, as you know, won't agree with you on that. Which is why you need using "rape" generically, when accusing IDF, because you want to imply they mass raped palestinian women for fun like Hamas provenly did with Israeli women.
Except not even the pro-Hamas UN found they did. Because they didn't. IDF soldiers didn't rape palestinian women in mass. It didn't happen and you know that. Hamas instead did.
do you understand that two things can be bad, even if one is worse than the other?
IDF mass rapes men in its jails.
I'd like human rights protected. Do you share that concern?
do you understand that two things can be bad, even if one is worse than the other?
IDF mass rapes men in its jails.
Do you understand that when you talk about "the UN found that the IDF raped a lot!", the intention is to make readers believe they raped women civilians? not men prisoners as a form of torture?
Do you realize that a lot of people don't give a **** at all about terrorist human rights? and even those who do, clearly and cathegorically consider a violation of those as far less severe than mass raping women?
Do you realize in the west we do treat women being raped far more severely than men being raped, for many cultural reasons?
I understand you can have different morals.
But the attempt at misdirection was clear. The game was trying to imply IDF raped a lot of palestinian women "just because", like they were animals, with no justification, just because they have power over them.
Instead the UN report (which we have no reason to believe to be clear) found the IDF raped terrorists (you are automatically a terrorist if you are Hamas, doesn't require a trial, there is no "suspect") for torture/vengeance.
For the vast majority of human beings, doing something terrible to people who do terrible things is far more morally justified than doing it to people who did nothing wrong.
do you understand that two things can be bad, even if one is worse than the other?
IDF mass rapes men in its jails.
I'd like human rights protected. Do you share that concern?
No i don't, not for terrorists. I don't think any form of protection should exist for them. I strongly disagree with the universality of human rights .
I acually think wasting any effort to try to protect terrorist human rights is a moral abomination.
They are not (depending on which you mean). But it's the toughest neighborhood on the planet, that much is clear. Of the bunch, they are still among the best. They can and need to be much better.
But nevertheless would you still support the arrest and prosecution of the relevant Israeli and Hamas military and political figures at The Hague?
Certainly. In the light of the UN's independent report into actions taken by Hamas and the IDF I've conceded that both carried out mass rape and leaders of both should be sent to The Hague.
ok does it give you any pause that your initial reaction to this un report, which you hadn't read, was to sneer at the "mass rape theorists", when one hour later you found yourself among the ranks of the mass rape theorists?
Now let's see you acknowledge the IDF's rape atrocities carried out by the "brave and good boys and girls of the IDF" who you clearly venerate.
as a matter of recorded history, rapes go on all over the place during war. i've been trying to get you to understand this for a while, and if i recall correctly (i do), you referred to it as a pathetic argument
again, does this give you any pause?
Just keep in mind this isn't a good faith discussion.
Progressives just hate the western civilization, and anything they view as "colonialism." They dont actually care about human rights or quality of life of "brown people."
As long as westerners are kicked out of places like Afghanistan, Africa, "Palestine," Iraq, Somalia; progressives are happy. Even when Islamists take control and take things back to the 6th cenury.
And they are completely indifferent to the quality of life of the people there once westerners leave.
Hamas has been recruiting and indoctrinating orphans into their rank and file for decades.
To them, as Sinwar (and some of the “more moderate” political leaders in the past) has (have said), martyrdom is preferable to peaceful co-existence.
Hamas needs to go. Its successors need to be crushed. And the brainwashed, homicidal, and suicidal parts of Palestinian populations need to be suppressed so there is room for the “collaborators” to actual
Hamas/ect need to be defeated.
That is not the same as 'crushing'. Military 'crushing' is dancing to their tune. Last thing they want is a politcal solution.
Hamas/ect need to be defeated.
That is not the same as 'crushing'. Military 'crushing' is dancing to their tune. Last thing they want is a politcal solution.
Your preferred method of ending the conflict is completely at odds with "defeating" Hamas. Israel unilaterally retreating, giving control of Gaza back to Hamas, and massive amounts of money being given to them is the opposite of defeating them.
what makes you so sure all jurisdictions currently consider that rape and not sexual violence?
I'm just going by the common meaning of rape?
Am I to understand that you don't think forcibly sodomizing people is rape? I know I've asked this before but it's very hard getting a straight answer out of you people.
Address topics and claims, not each other or we’re heading toward timeouts in here, friends ♥
ok does it give you any pause that your initial reaction to this un report, which you hadn't read, was to sneer at the "mass rape theorists", when one hour later you found yourself among the ranks of the mass rape theorists?
as a matter of recorded history, rapes go on all over the place during war. i've been trying to get you to understand this for a while, and if i recall correctly (i do), you referred to it as a pathetic argument
again, do
Rape apology itt when Israel in the shape of your "brave boys and girls of the IDF" commit it. Totally disgusting attempts itt to exonerate clear war crimes.
does it give you pause that you recently posted a tweet which claimed the israeli women raped by hamas on oct 7, something which you and i now agree took place, was a hoax
That post accurately reports what the tweeted report said.
Your posts otoh seek to whitewash mass rape committed by your "brave and good boys and girls of the IDF" reported by the UN. That is war crime denial and makes your posts rape denials. Glad I cleared that up for you.
How do you feel about the IDF now?
Yes quite. This makes it far more likely of course that Israel and the IDF were going to be involved in widespread atrocities.
Send in the UN now and escort the IDF leadership and Israeli cabinet to The Hague.
Israel is outwith the ICC's jurisdiction. The US veto means the UN won't act against Israel in any definitive manner, and actually invading Israel would be a crime of aggression by the UN's own rules.
