2024 ELECTION THREAD

Posting 700 names in a single post (or quoting such a post) should be an automatic one-day temp ban.

We're talking about a different thing now than when we started this conversation. The original question I was discussing with E2 was about whether the Dems can be considered left wing. My point isn't that they are far leftist, my point is that they are pretty standard social liberals which are considered center-left in most countries, and a lot of the claims about how far right they are economically doesn't really make sense. Now you want to come in and talk about Italian leftist politics being insane compared to American leftist politics, I mean I'm not an expert on your system so I have no idea. I also won't take your word for it because of the crazy stuff you have said in this thread and others.

Again I explained to you that there are federal funds that are allocated for states to implement certain programs. It's sort of silly to compare the salaries of teachers to implementing a state program to mandate coverage to the uninsured. There are logistical, legal, and political battles that need to be won there in order to make it feasible. I mean we already have a sort of "public option" through medical for instance, but then there's the question of whether we can force people to pay for medical. I think it would be possible to implement a CA medicare for all, but then we're basically gambling that hospitals won't just up and leave under the new system.

I'm open to discussing healthcare systems more in depth but I have the feeling that you don't really care and are just driving at something else.

If you want me to say "ok fine Dems are not left, they are a right-wing party" then sure... I guess I don't care about labels that much. But then I just have no idea what left and right even means, because within the context of the United States and even when you don't just isolate on other OECD nations and look at the entire world, the Dems are pretty socially liberal and economically they advocate for strong safety nets and labor unions.

You are lying about what you said or just using motte and baily. Here is what you said Luciom:

There is absolutely nothing in here about their tactics. You are talking about their beliefs and that they are genocidal and should be thrown in jail. That's disgusting stalinist behavior.

More than the party, I would say the country has really shifted towards Obama on healthcare as a whole, as many predicted. I don't think medicaid expansion under the ACA has lost in even the reddest states where voters have been allowed to decide directly. And not being able to talk about healthcare at all because their opposition to Obamacare has always been performative is dragging on the right.

quoting word bombs like that, especially from people i've taken the time to ignore so i don't have to see that kind of ****, should also be a ban

If only we had someone with mod powers around

It is not just beliefs they are voting on that.

Their representatives in parliament are voting on that.

it is not stalinist to ban parties which monstrous policy ideas inimical to core elements of society, the country with second biggest military in the NATO did it for decades with our collective agreement for example.

and when it stopped things started going bad there.

and yes the "tactics" they have been employing for years here in Europe are part and parcel of my take, I mean they are already showing us they are willing to commit acts of terror for their "cause".

as I wrote let's start from there , maybe it could even be enough.

//

example of a vote that should show you how crazy the people I am talking about are:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220701IPR34365/taxonomy-meps-do-not-object-to-inclusion-of-gas-and-nuclear-activities

europarl

Taxonomy: MEPs do not object to inclusion of gas and nuclear activities | News | European Parliament

278 members of the EU Parliament (majority 353, it didn't pass), voted to *exclude nuclear and natgas from green electricity sources* (gas was already only considered green as a substitute for coal/oil, not as an additional source).

278, 40%+ of European representatives. they wanted to stop counting nuclear as a clean source and not to count closing a coal plant using a gas one as improvement wrt emissions.

they want 100% solar/wind, and ofc they also have many objections on those (poor birds killed by turbines, pristine landscape ruined by turbines and panels and so on).

and mind that we are already talking inside a framework that already mandates insane emission reductions, ie a framework that is already to the far left of the American one.

it is NEVER enough for them, the goal isn't "only" net zero (which is already crazy and destructive enough by itself), it's total control of all aspects of society.

that's 40% of the EU Parliaments basically with ideas fully incompatible with human life and civilization as we are living it currently.

maybe you don't agree on my "rethoric" about it but do you see how those people and people voting for them are an existential threat to society?

Well I think people like yourself should be put in jail with much longer term jail time using hate rhetoric like yourself …

You get now why the use of violence should be kept to a minimum by the state ?

You don’t want too much power in the hands of governments to be able to shut you down with your free speech and libertarian concept of what life should be right ?

You hold a funny stance of being libertarian and yet advocating the kind of government control u demand for ….
China Russia are nice model to your taste it seems .

Ah yes the old : I’m for total freedom but only for the freedom i like .
Those who have a different way of Thinking should be put to jail or death …
No compromise !!! ( nice democratic view about liberty and freedom and democracy …😉

Now imagine if 90% of the others citizen
( ho yes you are that far off from mainstream)
would actually had the power you wish the government have and what they could do to you today !!!

Be careful what you wish for , you might end up on the wrong side of very bad outcomes unknowingly ….
When you give power to someone , make you would not mind your « ennemies » had it and what they could do to you .

I mean I disagree with them but if that’s your example of crazy I guess I just wonder what their reasoning for voting that way is. My understanding is that it has to do with labeling certain energy sources as sustainable for the purposes of investment?

I looked through the Green Deal and it seems pretty solid. Not perfect, and I’m sure there will be growing pains, but it looks like Europe is set up to be a leader in renewable energy. Are we sure that by the time everything is set up you guys won’t be paying less than the rest of the world for energy?

Remember that that's the left party.

I don't know which blatant absurdity they use to oppose nuclear (probably depending on the people, it's different lies about it) but i hope you 1) know that many leftits actually oppose it, that has always been the case 2) accept that they are complety crazy to oppose it.

For natgas, they want a much more rapid transition to "no emissions" in general and "degrowth" in general in the economy, they don't care if it means poverty. So they oppose passing through gas from coal/oil (for electricity production) , they want those plants shut down whatever the consequences.

I don't know what else that crazy / utterly evil you can use to describe someone who thinks reducing emissions is a first order priority above almost everything else for society, yet opposes nuclear.

Crazy, if he actually believes emission reduction is important, then being anti nuclear is utterly crazy.

Evil, if he is pretending emission reduction is the goal while the goal is to dismantle capitalism and so on.

Not sure why you think installing solar panels in ... Germany is going to be a splendid idea, it's not like we haven't done that already at insane costs , costs which before the eu-wide deal german electricity users paid as surplus in their bills.

To reach this (i use pre-covid/ukraine war because it avoids recent complications)

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Reta...

That adds up and should be computed as costs even in the future, all those subsidizes were potentially directable elsewhere and so on.

If in 2028 for a year or two kwh prices are decent that doesn't justify the insane costs, you have to account in RoE terms, with compound interest since inception of the program and so on. One of the worst waste of public money ever tbh.

And the green deal just makes that even worse.

donny da dove threatens the genocide machine, they big mad

I mean it all depends on how we’re caching this stuff out. I think that they are trying to come up with investments that will allow us to reach certain emissions targets. It’s going to take a lot of investment to do that, and the benefits might not be seen right away. No one is arguing that at the onset it will be cheaper, but over the long term I think many of the Green Deal policies will be reproduced in other countries, and then others might not be.

The vote you were pointing to failed for one and it seemed like it was talking about labeling certain energy sources as sustainable for the purposes of investment/certification. I personally favor your suggestion of replacement, especially natural gas with coal which has shown a lot of benefits in the US. We’ll see which approach shows more benefits over time. You have a lot of pessimism about the European approach, but how do you know that it won’t lead to some gigantic technological innovation that will be reproduced by other countries throughout the world using European businesses and consultants? Or EU may become a global tourist destination because of their preservation of biodiversity and natural beauty, clean air and streets?

The whole point of the Green Deal seems to be making sure there is a transition that allows European markets to remain strong. It is the exact opposite of marxism, it is a market approach using supply side investment.

I don’t think people are crazy or evil for wanting that. We can definitely both agree that throwing soup on fine art and blocking streets for normal citizens is definitely not the way to go, but I doubt it lives up to “terrorism”. And I would bet all the money I have that in ten-twenty years there will be no ecological genocide you keep insinuating is right around the corner, and you will still be living in Italy complaining about neomarxists.

Throwing soup at art isn't terrorism. It's "only" politically motivated vandalism which should carry stricter penalties that it currently does but isn't terrorism.

Blocking bridges , trains, airports is terrorism.

This is terrorism which should carry the death penalty/life no parole not only for perpetrators but for organizers as well and any donor who knew this was the intent and so on

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-climate-ac....

Cutting through a fence to enter an airport to block flights from taking off is terrorism.

Anyway the ecological-motivated economic genocide *is already happening in europe*. Germany economy is doing horribly currently because of it, even in a world where economic conditions are still way above average (namely, the USA are still going well). They are assassinating their manufacturing sector and with it a significant portion of the northern italian one. We are nimbler, already reduced in size a lot because of several crisis, and so we have less to lose but still, a disaster.

This is the picture of the economic genocide (keep in mind that the normal state of affair is for the line to grow every year)

We are ALREADY paying outrageous prices for gasoline and electricity. Every day of every week of every month of every year we pay the blood price to green marxism.

Hey guys let's protest these jaywalking laws.

Luciom--plug in the chair.

Wait why are you posting this article? It says that the German Interior Minister already proposed severe jail time for such actions and called it stupid. And please don’t say I’m moving the goalposts, because I agree that sending them to jail for a long time should be the punishment here. Not execution of life sentence, that’s pretty stupid, but like a 5-10 year sentence seems reasonable.

By the way I hope you know that I have always been very critical of these actions and think that the organizers that direct them to do it should face harsh jail sentences. I think it’s evil that they tell good kids with their life ahead of them to throw their life away even if they think it’s for a good cause. As you might know I’m a vegan and this happens a lot in our movement, I think it’s really really bad.

In the US enviroterrorism is already listed as an activity the FBI watches for, is it not the same in European states?

Anyway the ecological-motivated economic genocide *is already happening in europe*. Germany economy is doing horribly currently because of it, even in a world where economic conditions are still way above average (namely, the USA are still going well). They are assassinating their manufacturing sector and with it a significant portion of the northern italian one. We are nimbler, already reduced in size a lot because of several crisis, and so we have less to lose but still, a disaster.

This is the picture of the economic genocide (keep in mind that the normal state of affair is for the line to grow every year)

We are ALREADY paying outrageous prices for gasoline and electricity. Every day of every week of every month of every year we pay the blood price to green marxism.

GDP is still going up year over year and quality of life is still great in Europe compared to all other places except the US. I don’t see some isolated stat as a big deal.

That’s sort of how I see it as well. Also if the member states hate it so much they can always just leave like Britain did. My guess is that they don’t because the benefits of the EU and Euro-zone are enormous for the member states, and this environmental legislation is relatively popular.

And by the way Britain is not exactly doing so hot itself economically.

whole of northern europe is doing about the same, which is basically zero per capita gdp growth since 2008

germany did however perform a special self-own by closing all its energy generating capacity because of [unmentionable national psyche reasons] and bc they thought they could rely on russian gas. ups.

The real problem is that you don’t realize YOU are the threat ….
Like all fascist, dictator , communist , theocratic , authoritarian ideologues that claim they aren’t a threat while calling every other line of thinking of them -> ennemies!

And sadly because we live in a pretty good democracy and wouldn’t accept government authority you advocate , it’s what permit you to still be able to be free and still breath ….

Then they allowed EU-wide rules that fine automotive companies if they don't sell enough EV (a growing percentage of total every year) and when chinese companies started making cheap EVs and some countries reduced incentives to buy EVs because they costed too much, they got massacred.

Volkswagen is going to collapse production and so on.

It's a disaster which the USA have to avoid at all costs which is why i keep talking about it in a thread on american elections: green policies are the road to economic hell. Green is the new red, the whole green concoction is marxism 2.0

Done.

#Thinman has been banned for 24 hours.

Friends, please don’t do things that break threads.

If I may had .
IMHO Europe has as well a debt problem and a too strong currency that permit them to be very competitive and on international markets .

Transitioning like they do on climate changes will be difficult, painful and Inflationary.
But seem it’s what actually what they need and once the transition done, the benefits should be pretty good with a bonus of great healthy environment.

Ps: and for those that think money is what is the most important thing in life well …..

1 down, 1 to go.

If Sklansky is still a site admin, you can't ban him unfortunately. A sternly worded letter will have to suffice.

GDP has recovered to pre-2008 levels and their quality of life has remained extremely high in Finland for example. Why are people acting like Europe is in a complete death spiral when it couldn’t be further from the truth?

Ah yes, all these Green policies involve centralized control of government and an end of markets. I’m convinced at this point it’s just rhetoric. Green Deal is specifically a MARKET-BASED solution, which is why certain activists hate it.

If we are talking about opposing socialism, I say absolutely. Let’s not become socialist countries, especially not Stalinism or Maoism. That’s not what we’re talking about though and you know it.