2024 ELECTION THREAD

its not in a death spiral, but compared to the other important economic regions of the world its been a rough 15 years, and people are getting a bit annoyed about it

But on the bright side people invested in property and the stock market have been doing just great. I wonder how this could be?

it's not a death spyral because it's reversible if we remove leftism from decision making for 10+ years but if we don't it's a death sentence

presumably you want to blame capitalism, an argument which falls over immediately when you look at how well the usa has done economically over the same period

when you ban stuff and subsidize stuff you cease to care about "the market" and you are centralizing.

I oppose centralized planning and decision making in every aspect of the economy the government is terrible at picking winners and there should never be any planning of economic activity at the state level in any form

Hopeless thing to say about a country with even worse housing and homelessness problems than the UK, but as usual the capitalism-shaggers don't consider that.

Name a single country that has ever succeeded. I prefer tried and true economic ideas, not fantasy libertarian woo woo mumbo jumbo that is just as dangerous as Marxist central planning.

uh? stock market is doing **** in Europe and property markets as well in many areas.

eurostoxx 50 is at the NOMINAL LEVELS OF 2000, 24 years with NO NOMINAL GAINS (yes ok they give some dividends but still).

are we talking the same reality?

NOMINAL property prices in most places in Italy are at pre GFC levels, normal cities like Genoa, Turin and so on have the same nominal prices of 20+ years ago for housing (yes really).

it's the worst economic performance of any first world area in the recorded history of the world over 2 decades. nothing comes close. and it's entirely because of leftism

Now do property outside Italy.

the USA succeded at everything the state didn't command and control lol, like big tech till now.

they created more wealth in that in the last 30 years that many countries did in their whole millenarian history without any ****ing government developing plan or anything like that

Then again, if you're running the Trump campaign you also know that he isn't getting any better.

France didn't catch up with inflation since 2007 for property prices.

index was at 100 in 2007 and is at 125 today, less than 1.5% per year

Spain is lower nominally since the GFC

do you admit you had no ****ing clue at all about the continent horrific economy and horrific path of asset prices compared to real countries governed by non Marxists now?

dude, you move the goalpost so fast on so many issues. I respond to your claim about lack of subsidies and bans, then you go say something about a development plan. Those are completely different things.

I usually only debate people over VC because this is why text is so slippery. In person or on discord I could just interrupt you when you completely change the subject, but over text you're allowed to yap endlessly from one point to a next, never acknowledging when you change positions on things.

Now do the UK and USA.

the green deal is a development plan jfc, countries have to submit projects to the commission to get the tranches of the money to subsidize the stuff and so on.

it's a quinquennal Plan as well to keep traditions intact

they went far better because less communism.

ofc the UK did the silly Brexit which costed a lot in real GDP, you can be idiotic even outside Marxism sure.

still less leftism is invariably better for the human beings living there

Not really, you guys just have a lot of social programs and environmental policy. I think people are just expecting way too much out of an economy. 15 years ago Europe was far outstripping the US and the rest of the world in terms of quality of life, and fifteen years later it's still the same. Maybe some gains here or there and some losses here or there for position, but for now and going forward it's a much better place to live.

if the EU was "far outstripping the US in terms of quality of life" why do we have more Europeans going to the US than viceversa?

and it's harder for an European to emigrate to the US than for an American to live in Europe which is basically automatic in many countries

That's avoiding the question.

Unrestrained capitalism has allowed domestic and foreign investors to buy up swathes of property as a safe haven for their money and to price gouge rents from.

maybe you are thinking how you can live if you already have x million USD and/or a good pension + some assets.

in which case yes why not Europe in some specific areas depending on tastes can be better than the USA sure.

but it's impossibly harder to accumulate that much in Europe.

not avoiding I am telling you we had Marxism here and asset prices did ****, while other countries didn't and asset prices went far better.

which is better for anyone who had savings ie for the best people in society.

pretty sure there are more foreign owners of property in Spain than in the USA as a percentage of total property

I remember when this thread was about the election and not Luciom's df political ideas.

Europe did. all green european policies are marxism

Nonsense. Marxism is about the struggle for power between classes.